The best piece of land ever for golf...

[Tim Gavrich]

How do we judge pieces of land?  Is it just undulation?  I personally think that variety of natural features is key in 'rating' tracts of land.  To me, the land on which courses like Sand Hills and Ballyneal is not perfect, though I have no objection to their greatness.  While the pictures of the heaving terrain are certainly breathtaking, the land is pretty uniform.  No water features (a feature I quite like, though some other GCAers seem less-than-enthused about it) or trees (see previous parenthetical) seem to be in play at SH and B.  I love the look of both golf courses, and am sure thay are incredible.  But to me, the open prairie is not the "best ever."  To me, Pine Valley's site seems to contain all the elements that make a world-class site.  Water, trees, natural areas, etc...

That variety, plus variety in the architecture of the holes themselves--that's what I'm talking about!

[Chris Perry]

I guess it depends on what KIND of course you're talking about, but for coastal, judging by satellite images, I'd nominate the tip of Cape Cod.

[RJ_Daley]

John, no.  I know approximately what Wild Horse does in rounds per year, how many are member rounds, and what the local expectations are.  I know how many crappy courses are in that immediate vacinity, and yet MANY locals PREFER THEM!     Just based on that, I can't see a rational investment for another public course out there.


I'd be very amazed if DY did a market study on what the area could yield back in 1993-4.  Obviously, they depend on a national private market as does BallyNeal and Dismal River and soon Prairie Club.  That takes people with national contacts.  That sort of operation involves more than just build a great golf course and they will come.  It means taking a major flyer at building support structure, lodging, tapping local labor availability, suppliers for F&B and course materials.   It takes a person or group that can stand a heck of a lot of risk.  In DYs case, he already was in the Nebraska golf market big time with Firesthorn.  He already had a following and a fall back position of sorts.

Take Barneygoogles.  That began with a visonary-dreamer in Mr Greg Ramsay.  He had a prospectus and a plan.  But, I don't think he retained control over that enterprise (I could be wrong)  I believe Mr Keiser and others that can stand the risk took the flyer.  It is a world beater of a golf course on said perfect piece of golf ground by all accounts I've seen and heard.  Yet, without the principals able to stand pat, what are its' long term prospects?  

[RJ_Daley]

Tim, IMO undulation is very important.  But, there is undulation and then there is undulation.  Just in the sand hills alone, what looks like spectacular heaving ground is not perfect.  And, the undulation and character of what I call the "frequency of the rolls" varies greatly from mile to mile.  The direction orentation and length of the inter dune ridges or sand hills varies, and some is too hard to route logically or efficently.  (assuming you are not just going to move whatever earth you please to make it what you want - which is not perfectly natural).  

I got a very good lesson in this orientation of the sand hills from DY himself when looking at some topo maps of the region.  Prairie Club has perfect roll or frequency of rolls, IMO.  There are perhaps a couple thousand acres above the cap rock there that appears perfect.  The orientation is excellent and there is a famous National Geographic fold out feature from years ago that demonstrates this very well.

Then, one has to estimate the water source.  The aquafer, its current severe draw-down and this scary long term trend are detractions from the definition of the "best piece of land for golf".   Believe it or not, even the sand out there is not all perfect.  There are pockets of alkalie and clayey sand that don't drain all that well, nor will it produce great turf without much help.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

thanks RJ.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Sand Hills is the best that I ahve seen to date.  Its hard to believe that a more pure site exists.

For dramatic sites with the caviot that it might just be TOO severe there is Carne.  That place is amazing and I have photos of the "extra land" that they own that I believe Engh is building a new nine holes on.  He better get that one right because that is one hell of a eye catching piece of land.

[Bruce Katona]

Sebonack.  I was was there to look at it prior to Tom Doak being involved.  It really blew away my mind the possibilities.

All I could see was Pebble/Cypress before there was a course at either.

[Tom_Doak]

Bruce:

Sebonack was a great piece of ground for golf, but I've got to wonder how you could tell before we started in on it.  The vegetation was so thick that I couldn't tell much about anything except the holes along the bluff, from walking around.  98% of the routing was done by working on the map.

[Glenn Spencer]

Where does The Ocean Course fall in this category? How about The Honors or Wolf Run? Also, does Garden City do the best job of showing that it is not necessary?

[Matt_Ward]

The best piece of land I have ever personally seen for golf is Old Head in Ireland.

However ...

The finished product doesn't live up to what it could / should have been. Tom Doak said it best -- getting the land, finding the willing developer and having the best an architect can deliver are the keys. Miss any one of them and you get just about anything less than the best. Old Head sure proves that although there are no less than six outstanding holes there. It could have had 18 all-star holes. A pity.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt - are you sure about that?

I'd say it's among the best sites I've seen for hiking, picnicking, hang gliding, sight-seeing for sure... but for golf?  I don't think so.

Oh, I sure don't regret that they did build a golf course there - I really enjoyed playing it.  But the best land for golf?  Maybe for 9 holes, all around the edges - that I could buy.  But I don't see it, not for an 18 hole course.

And people always say it could have been done better... well I'd like to know how.  How could a totality of 18 better golf holes been put on that site?

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

Help me out here good buddy ...

You are the guy who defends Pebble to the death. The site for Old Head simply BLOWS AWAY Pebble and that's not a stretch or hyperbole.

The course provides stunning 360 degree views and the interplay of nature and golf could not have a more unique and thrilling location.

The finished design plays out as some sort of compromise with a variety of hands involved and that is what indeed happened. If memory serves, I believe Tom Doak was interested in the project but I don't have the details -- maybe he can enlighten everyone regarding his interest then.

Huck -- got news for you friend -- put an architect of supreme skill and the finished product there would have meant having gates as high as the eye could see as golfers would flock to such a memorable place.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

I will disagree vehemently that the land on which Old Head sits is superior to the land on which Pebble sits.  Good lord, that's not even close, and not in the direction you think.

Matt, there's really only room for 9 great holes on that Old Head site.  Tom Doak himself said this recently.... basically confirming something I've always thought.

In any case, I am not disagreeing at all with the concept that skilled hands bring out great courses - I concur 100% there ole buddy ole pal my gosh my golly and the rubber is meeting the road.  

I just disagree with your example.  The gods of golf architecture themselves couldn't have made an 18-hole architectural marvel at Old Head.  Oh, I have zero doubt Doak or someone else might have done better than what's there now.  But the best land one's ever seen for golf?  If that's the case, then you need to put the pedal to the metal and get out more.

 

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt, the East course at Berwick is on headlands and the west course is on links. Which is the better peice of land for golf? They are several hundred yards apart.

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

I think part of Doak's comments rest with his own self interest and not being a part of the finished project. The self interest usually trumpets the general interest.

Help me with something -- let's not get amnesia regarding the dull interior holes at Pebble. I mean, c'mon, pass me the No-Dooooze will you!

The issue with Old Head is that too many cooks spoiled the finished meal. The interior holes could have been made to truly resemble what an Irish course should look like. That didn't happen and that's unfortunate.

Huck -- I've seen and played my share and defer only to a few who have labored more than I on that front. The question here was the best piece of land ever for golf and I believe Old Head is that but the finished product turned out to be a half-way bag of superior holes for 1/3 of the round, middle of the road for six more and six you can take and throw away for the balance of the round.

Another thing to keep in mind -- Old Head has no greens -- maybe a few -- that really are unique. Again, the compromise method of architecture simply failed to provide a clear vision on what the golf could / should have been.

When you stand on the site itself -- it is trule awesome. I can remember playing the tips at #18 with the lighthouse up against my back and the ocean rolling away down to the left. Simply awesome stuff. I guess you must have missed that part.

[Tom Huckaby]

Matt:

Well, as is often the case, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.  Oh, I was quite inspired at Old Head - as I say, I loved the course.  Enjoyed the hell out of it.  Felt a little weird at such an "American" type place there in Ireland, but the golf course was fun.

I'm just never going to agree it's the best site for golf I've ever seen, because it's not, for the simple reason there's not room for 18 great holes.

As for the rest re cooks, etc., you'll get no argument from me.

Your example in this thread just remains completely wrong.

And it's OK Matt - no one is perfect, not even you.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

If Eric Bergstol could transform the waterfront of Bayonne, NJ into a replication of an Irish links and he only used his considerable thinking of what it should be -- I can only imagine what someone of similar ability could have down with Old Head.

Sorry partner -- we do disagree.

[Tom Huckaby]

I too can only imagine what someone else could have done with Old Head.

But once again, that's not the point.

The point remains you are calling this THE BEST land you have ever seen for golf.  And I just find the land away from the edges at Old Head to be relatively pedestrian.  Not awful by any means - but pedestrian enough to get this site FAR from the BEST land one's ever seen for a golf course.

So yes, I suppose we must disagree.  You see things in that mundane interior land that I sure don't.... and neither does Doak...

TH