Could alternate greens be the solution ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pine Valley has several holes with alternate greens.
In one instance, the greens mirror one another, in the other instance, they're quite diverse.

Pacific Dunes has a hole with alternate greens.

I believe that Trump's course in New Jersey originally had a hole with two greens.

In the discussion regarding architecture dictating green speed Jeff Brauer seemed torn between opposing forces, the creative force and the market force.

Wouldn't dual or alternate greens solve that problem ?

I know they're costly to construct and maintain, but, it would seem to allow the architect to do his "creative" thing, while at the same time allowing the owner to do their "market" thing.

It would be interesting to observe and poll golfers who had the opportunity to play to two greens, one highly contoured and/or sloped or to greens within a green, and the other benign, with moderate to minimal contour and/or slope.

My guess would be that the highly contoured, green within a green would be desired by the golfers, provided it was on a relatively short hole.

With all of the money being spent on the acquisition of land, design and construction, wouldn't this concept fit well within the framework of modern day golf courses ?

Wouldn't the golfers be better served ?

And, wouldn't the architects get an unbridled chance to produce creative, interesting, challenging yet fun products ?

Have any architects considered this concept in the last 5 years other than at PD ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

There is one hole with an alternate green at Stephen Kay's Scotland Run in New Jersey and Jim Engh's soon to open new private course at Reynolds Plantation in Georgia has 3 greens on the 18th hole. I don't think green speed was a factor in either of these situations.

[Paul_Turner]

I windor if they could have kept the original green, as an alternate, at Hoylake's 17th?  And only used Steel's green for the Open.

The chain of bunkers up to the green are still the originals, I think?

[Andy Hughes]

Pat, I wonder if one of the two greens would always be seen as the 'favorite' or preferred green and the other as the weaker sister?

Strantz has two greens on a hole at True Blue, though to be honest I have no idea why. Coincidentally, it was my least favorite hole there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy,

If they have their own distinct personalites, I don't think that would be the case.

It's not the case on # 9 at PV or # 9 at PD.

# 8 at PV is another story since the purpose of the creation of that green was to take pressure off of the existing green, hence the mirror image.

[Evan_Green]

Some thoughts:

The Tradition in La Quinta has two holes with alternate greens that play very differently depending on which green is being used.

Some Japanese courses such as Kasumigaseki have alternate greens on all holes - the green used depends on the season.

A twist on the alternate greens solution are the two different color pins on each green employed at Desert Mountain. One could play to one color in the morning and the other in the afternoon and play two very different courses.

Alternate greens could be a good solution to the 9 hole course dillemma discussed on another thread today. Rather than fit in 18 crummy holes when there only only land for 9 good ones, build 9 holes with alternate greens providing for an 18 hole experience very different from playing the same set of 9 holes twice from 2 different tees.

[Andy Hughes]

If they have their own distinct personalites, I don't think that would be the case.

It's not the case on # 9 at PV or # 9 at PD.

# 8 at PV is another story since the purpose of the creation of that green was to take pressure off of the existing green, hence the mirror image.

Odd, my hunch would be that if they have distinct personalities that would actually heighten the sense that one is better or more fun or preferred.  But you are saying that #9 at Pine Valley has two very different greens and that neither is really more enjoyable to play?
Maybe what the sense I am getting would be different if you play the course often and see both greens in play, so the double green actually adds variety.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andy,

Yes, they play entirely different, as do the two greens at the 9th at PD.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I like the idea of two greens.  The shots into 8 & 9 at Pine Valley vary, depending on which green is used.  

I think it is a good idea for courses that may have problem greens.  You could use one green while the other is worked on.