I agree with you John. I would say Crooked Stick 9 and Victoria, somewhere around 8.5, as you know I am still reeling from not playing in that partners tourney there. I just don't understand Crooked Stick's present position in the rankings. I know the rankings are crazy sometimes, but still, I don't get it. I started a thread on it a while ago, but I didn't get what I wanted from it. Could someone chime in with some failures at Crooked Stick? I know that some said 9 has been tinkered with and all, but I still really, really liked that hole. I would like to hear some examples of a golf course with better par 3's on it.