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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #100 on: July 14, 2006, 07:53:59 AM »
Ian Andrew,

Can a green be overcontoured ?

I would guess you were refering to the 7th green at Friar's Head.

It's certainly a challenging green, but, I find it highly interesting and since it's a par 5, the approach to that green is usually with a mid to short iron.

When I first came on this site, I categorized certain issues and architects as having enjoyed "Most Favored Nation" status.  That's probably akin to "Sacred Cows"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #101 on: July 14, 2006, 09:01:49 AM »
Thank you all for participating in my little survey.  I've gotten a number of other private responses which added to the interest.

Here's my take on the results:

1.  I am considered a sacred cow by many, which is too bad.  If that's the case then I have nothing to learn from being here.  Feedback is essential to growth.  I HAVE gotten some good feedback over the years, and I'm even trying to respond to it with some of my current design work, but there are less and less posters who are providing it, and some of them lay it on so thick that it's difficult to cut through the cliches to get to the point.

2.  It's not just me.  Pretty much any architect who participates here regularly is automatically deemed to be a good guy, and polite discourse prevents all but a handful of posters from really asking a serious question about design.  The same holds true for Bill Coore and Gil Hanse and Mike Strantz (for the saddest of reasons) even though they don't actually post.

3.  Despite denials by various posters, I believe that National, Shinnecock Hills, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes, Pine Valley, Friars Head, The Kingsley Club, Cypress Point, The Old Course at St. Andrews, and especially Seth Raynor are indeed Sacred Cows on this site.  All the hair-splitting about them being above criticism was just comical.  Only an idiot would argue that they aren't great courses, but that doesn't mean that you can't learn something about architecture by discovering something that they are lacking ... but anyone who suggests such a thing is subject to immediate Guantanamo-style interrogation.

4.  There is also the converse, for which I can't think of a proper term ... "Devil Incarnate" is a little strong, but that's how some people treat certain architects and/or courses.  I don't understand why we can't just cut through the b.s. and analyze a golf hole on a Jim Engh or Tom Fazio or Rees Jones course, without it devolving into personal attacks on their motives or style.

5.  There seem to be very few living architects in between the Sacred Cow or Devil Incarnate categories, therefore we don't really discuss anybody's work.  And that is the real reason why most modern architects dismiss this site as a worship place for Old Dead Guys ... they're all we've got left to talk about.

6.  I am bothered that there seem to be a handful of posters who think of themselves as the police of the site, who report politically-incorrect infractions to Mr. Morrissett ... and that Mr. Morrissett seems to respond accordingly.  Y'all know who you are.  And there's nothing worse than somebody who thinks they should be a sacred cow.  I will check back here in a month to see if that point has been deleted!

7.  Since a fair percentage of people seem to think I participate here mostly as a self-promoter, I have determined not to respond on any thread which discusses any of my courses in general.  Often, I'm drawn in because someone asks a question about something that I can answer, but that's when I come across as self-promoting.  So, if you want to ask me a question, start a thread that invites me in.  Otherwise I'll just read and hope to God that the level of analysis and discourse here picks up a notch in the months ahead.

Best wishes,

Tom D
« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 09:07:25 AM by Tom_Doak »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2006, 09:21:28 AM »
By architect:

Sacred             MacKenzie
                      MacDonald/Raynor
                      C&C
                      Doak

Not quite           Ross
sacred              Tillinghast
                       Thomas (or does belong above?)
                        Hanse
                        Silva

Heathens          Fazio!!
                      Rees
                      Nicklaus (or is he moving up?)

Lowest circle     Arthur Hills
of hell               Others?


Who else belongs where?  Other categories?  Who disagrees?





...John, you might want to add Unmentionables as a category.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #103 on: July 14, 2006, 09:35:28 AM »

How did we miss Flynn?

Tom --

Thanks for starting a thread that let us blow out the pipes a little.  

As for your decision/threat to join posts about your work only when invited, I hope you're not serious.  It's pretty clear that your career is going quite well, and anyone who thinks you need this site to promote yourself is, to use your word, an idiot.

As for hoping the level of discourse picks up, we can all hope for that, but I'm sorry to see you joining the chorus of handwringers.  Don't despair.  Overall this board is a good thing.
THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Peter Pratt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #104 on: July 14, 2006, 09:45:31 AM »
Tom,

I agree that it would be a great loss if you stopped posting on your own courses. Few of us have an opportunity to hear a working architect's thinking behind his/her decisions and I would hate to lose that.

BTW, I'm not in love with the 15th hole at High Pointe or the 12th at Pac Dunes. I'm sure I've ruined your day!!

Peter

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #105 on: July 14, 2006, 09:55:11 AM »
Gary,
I think Tom is correct in his analysis.
There is an overall lack of respect for the architecture business on this site.
I enjoy reading here but a large number on here  don't even have a good definition of golf architecture and what it involves.....of course someone will come on here and say I am being "Aloof" or whatever.
As a practicing architect I am not going to ever comment on another architects work.  I will comment on dead guy stuff and the current fad or cottage industry of restoration experts.
I just think it is important that people understand the site for what it is.....entertainment....with a few interesting topics here and there.  And there is nothing wrong with that.
I think anybody that has been in this business for a few years has a very thick skin...if not they wouldn't still be in it.  And that even goes for us that are mediocre.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #106 on: July 14, 2006, 10:18:58 AM »
Tom, I am sorry you feel you are a sacred cow and feel that some of your posts should not put forth. I enjoy your contribution to this site even when it is at my expense. I certainly have no problem pointing out things about your posts or courses which come into question. I would like to think much of the success of this site is the self policing done by the contributors. I also think the industry contributors are important to the content as well. There are always posts and posters which are not so good but they have a way of going away on there own from boredum or whatever reason.

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2006, 10:23:41 AM »
Tom D

Don't try to take all the credit. Some people may hesitate to be critical of a course because of gratitude to their host, or an accomodation afforded by the club.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #108 on: July 14, 2006, 10:43:22 AM »
What a disappointing conclusion to this thread.

Mike Young -

I'm sorry to hear you think there is a lack of respect for the achitecture business on this site. I think quite the opposite. But if you do feel that way, a few pointed posts educating the rest of us might go a long way. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kavanaugh

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #109 on: July 14, 2006, 11:00:14 AM »
I'd say that if you want to seriously discuss architecture you should give up your rater card...As long as people jockey for position (raters and architects) this site will never reach its potential.  I'm reminded of the time some people out in the desert built a golden cow to worship...and that sacred cow didn't even have a golden ticket.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #110 on: July 14, 2006, 11:09:36 AM »
It's obvious that potential access to great courses stifles honest analysis about them.  Perhaps this is an unavoidable by-product of the website.   The whole access thing is a little creepy.

We spend a disproportionate amount of time discussing Doak, Coore & Crenshaw, and the golden age courses.  Of course I'm as guilty as anyone in that respect.  If we were really serious about having a well rounded knowledge of the subject, more time would be devoted to other architects.  Maybe the subject is too big to get our arms around.

Or maybe we need a couple more members to pony up the jillion dollars to join a Fazio course so we can all play it and study it.

Add Crystal Downs to the sacred cow list, and please nominate Pasatiempo for sacred status.  Underrated!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 11:36:16 AM by John Kirk »

Geoffrey Childs

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #111 on: July 14, 2006, 11:09:59 AM »
I'd say that if you want to seriously discuss architecture you should give up your rater card...As long as people jockey for position (raters and architects) this site will never reach its potential.  I'm reminded of the time some people out in the desert built a golden cow to worship...and that sacred cow didn't even have a golden ticket.

Please explain John -

You seem to be implying that raters will never be critical and architects will always suck up for rating points.

Ran is a rater and its his site  :o  Should all architects give up their practice so they can discuss architecture on here in your idyllic pure forum?


Kevin Edwards

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #112 on: July 14, 2006, 11:12:58 AM »
I'd say that if you want to seriously discuss architecture you should give up your rater card...As long as people jockey for position (raters and architects) this site will never reach its potential.  I'm reminded of the time some people out in the desert built a golden cow to worship...and that sacred cow didn't even have a golden ticket.

What is the potential of this site in your estimation?

Thanks.. What is your vision?  Shouldnt it be Ran's vision?

Tom Huckaby

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #113 on: July 14, 2006, 11:13:34 AM »
Several people have called Pastiempo a sacred cow... that I don't get.  We've roasted and toasted it over the years.  I think I've played it as much as just about anyone here, and I do love it so... but for years I've lamented that they keep the greens too fast for the contours... Dave M. and I had a great debate about #10 - he wanted the trees removed, I thought they made for a better tougher tee shot... Others have ripped the bunkering on 10 (Goodale for one, can't recall exactly who else but there were others)... Many have questioned the whys behind Doaks re-do of 11 green.... We've discussed the blandness overall of the par fives, which I believe Brad Klein pointed out in his review...

Just how is this golf course a sacred cow?

TH

ps - John Kirk - I get that you just want to call it sacred and that you find it underrated - and that's cool - but others did add the cow to the sacred... that has me puzzled.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 11:16:17 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #114 on: July 14, 2006, 11:21:31 AM »
Bob,

Funny that you of all people should send a snarky response that either misses or ignores the point of my post.

Why "you of all people?"  Because some weeks back I received an IM from a well-meaning person I am not acquainted with warning not to piss off Bob Huntley.  Something about Bob being a very powerful guy.

Just for old time's sake, and just in case you missed it, here's the salient part of my post.

".. it's become distressingly clear that a lot of posters may censure or calibrate their views so as not to piss off the folks who can get them onto the courses they want to play."

Since you seemed a little slow on the uptake, Bob, I'll go ahead and spell it out for you:  our discourse on this board might be more useful were people not afraid to cross "sacred cows" like you.

And Bob.. I'm not sorry for having taken an innocent swipe at your pal Bill Murray, which is why you seem to have your panties in a wad.
Gary



Gary,

I did indeed get your humerous jibe and thought it well done. My question to you was basically, is there not an Elysian field where you would set aside your resolutions?

I must say that is the first time I have ever heard that I was powerful or a sacred cow, I wish it were so.

As for having my knickers in a wad over some comment made about Bill Murray is ludicrous and I certainly did not remember you and I having a conversation on this. Can he be an ass and upset people, you bet, like the rest of us.

Bob


Mike_Sweeney

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #115 on: July 14, 2006, 11:34:47 AM »

I must say that is the first time I have ever heard that I was powerful or a sacred cow, I wish it were so.


When the Huntley Group pulled up to the Fishers Island ferry in my car, we were suddenly told about the "20 Minute Rule". Well it is not marked anywhere on the website or confirmation email. It just is, and we arrived 17 minutes before the ferry and were placed in the standby line. Panic set in.   :o Where can we charter a boat? Do I send them over and bring the car later?

In a flash, I considered using my Sacred Cow in the passenger seat, but then I came to my senses and realized that the Fishers Island ferry guy probably did not care that my Sacred Cow could get him on some golf course 3000 miles away! :D

Fortunately, the Sacred Cow was not needed and we made it through the standby line.  :)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 11:36:02 AM by Mike Sweeney »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #116 on: July 14, 2006, 11:40:17 AM »
our discourse on this board might be more useful were people not afraid to cross "sacred cows" like you.

If people are afraid to discuss things, it's not Bob Huntley's fault, it's said people's fault. The only "power" he wields in that of being a good person.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #117 on: July 14, 2006, 11:42:21 AM »
Tom,

Just my way of saying I dig Pasatiempo the most, baby, and feels it deserves the recognition and reverence worthy of a cow.

Bob,

Anybody who uses the word "surfeit" in a sentence deserves some sort of elite status.  "Sacred cow" is probably not your first choice.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #118 on: July 14, 2006, 11:42:21 AM »
I'd say that if you want to seriously discuss architecture you should give up your rater card...As long as people jockey for position (raters and architects) this site will never reach its potential.  I'm reminded of the time some people out in the desert built a golden cow to worship...and that sacred cow didn't even have a golden ticket.

John, you've made many bizarro statements over the years, but this one is the prizewinner, imo.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Gary Daughters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #119 on: July 14, 2006, 11:45:54 AM »

Bob,

I say let's call it good.

You seem to have accrued tremendous respect and affection here, and I doubt it's because you're doling out chits to neat clubs.  At least I hope not.

I'm glad that you seem to have gotten my point.  Your question still goes over my head.  If you feel it's worth pursuing feel free to IM.

Gary

THE NEXT SEVEN:  Alfred E. Tupp Holmes Municipal Golf Course, Willi Plett's Sportspark and Driving Range, Peachtree, Par 56, Browns Mill, Cross Creek, Piedmont Driving Club

Tom Huckaby

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #120 on: July 14, 2006, 11:47:15 AM »
Tom,

Just my way of saying I dig Pasatiempo the most, baby, and feels it deserves the recognition and reverence worthy of a cow.


Gotcha.  But others have tried to call it a sacred cow.  I too very much dig it, but I don't find it beyond reproach.  6-7-8 are indeed too bunched together and they do at times keep the greens way too fast for the contours.  So reproach away....

As for vocabulary and Mr. Huntley, stick around - surfeit is just kid's stuff.  The man can turn a word.   ;D

Glenn Spencer

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #121 on: July 14, 2006, 12:06:56 PM »
Tom,

Just my way of saying I dig Pasatiempo the most, baby, and feels it deserves the recognition and reverence worthy of a cow.


Gotcha.  But others have tried to call it a sacred cow.  I too very much dig it, but I don't find it beyond reproach.  6-7-8 are indeed too bunched together and they do at times keep the greens way too fast for the contours.  So reproach away....

As for vocabulary and Mr. Huntley, stick around - surfeit is just kid's stuff.  The man can turn a word.   ;D

I am guilty of calling it a sacred cow, I just haven't seen anything bad written about it here, I know I won't say anything bad about it.


Anyone,

I need an explanation, if Tom Doak wants to put his blood, sweat and tears into a project and then encourage people to play it and he talks about it reverently, HOW ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH IS THAT SELF-PROMOTION? Seriously, what is he supposed to say that is not very good and dull to play? Whether it is over my head or I just think differently, there quite a few things that Tom says that I am not totally on board with, but to say that self-promotion is going on is just an insult to him and any hard-working professional architect or author or anything else. The guy enjoys a good golf course and believes his to be so and likes to share on them, wake up, that is all it is.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2006, 12:08:39 PM by Glenn Spencer »

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #122 on: July 14, 2006, 12:13:43 PM »
Some people may hesitate to be critical of a course because of gratitude to their host, or an accomodation afforded by the club.

The recent KP event to Stone Eagle is an obvious example of this.  30-40 GCAers play the course, and although there were a lengthy thread or two on the course, the posts were dominated by a few defenders and an attacker or two (World Cup analogy).  It should be apparent to all that Stone Eagle is/was not everyones cup of tea.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tom Huckaby

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #123 on: July 14, 2006, 12:19:11 PM »
Glenn - you haven't been around ling enough - Pasatiempo certainly does have its critics, and rightly so.  The course isn't perfect.  It is freakin' great and I do love it to death - I surely defend it more than I criticize it - but it is not above reproach/sacred cow.

And I'm one who believes there are such things that some of us have... Gene Greco was right early in this thread to connect Sand Hills to me in that respect.  As much as Doak is right logically in that no course is perfect, well... emotions rule there for me as much as logic and that IS my Sacred Cow.

TH

John Kavanaugh

Re:Sacred Cows
« Reply #124 on: July 14, 2006, 12:21:24 PM »
I'd say that if you want to seriously discuss architecture you should give up your rater card...As long as people jockey for position (raters and architects) this site will never reach its potential.  I'm reminded of the time some people out in the desert built a golden cow to worship...and that sacred cow didn't even have a golden ticket.

Please explain John -

You seem to be implying that raters will never be critical and architects will always suck up for rating points.

Ran is a rater and its his site  :o  Should all architects give up their practice so they can discuss architecture on here in your idyllic pure forum?


Geoffrey,

With the recent expulsion from a major panel of a rater who fell overly in love with a less favored architect I think it is safe to say that we rarely get the truth on this site in the future.  If people are not auditioning for a ticket they are protecting one.