Champion Bermuda

[Gary Daughters]

Champion Bermuda seems to be taking off here in the Atlanta area.  As I mentioned in a previous post, the new greens at Hard Labor State Park have totally transformed that course.

Now the city courses leased by American Golf all have plans to replace their bermuda greens with Champion.  North Fulton has been sprigged.  Tup Holmes is next, to be followed next year by Bobby Jones and Browns Mill.  Even the 9-holer at Candler Park.. a course that has some interesting history to it.  (I believe it was designed by a woman).

But I digress.  Is Champion catching on in other parts of the South?  

Is the treehouse as big on it as I am?  My impression is that Champion offers the speed and consistency of bent while being far more suited to our climate in terms of maintenance and durability.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

yes yes and Yes.

[cary lichtenstein]

Yes, yes, yes also

[Anthony_Nysse]

While Champion MAY be comparable to a bent, bentgrass will always be superior-Give me Bentgrass!

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Gary Daughters]

Tony,

Do you guys have bent at Hilton Head?  If so are you living on the edge?

In this area we generally have grainy, browny, chewed up bermuda which is great when it goes dormant but otherwise a crapshoot.  Or we have bent that completely freaks out when we have a summer drought or when the poor supe doesn't get his chemicals exactly right.

That's why even though Champion may be only "comparable" to bent, it is very welcome here.  Not having played it enough to make a informed judgement, my initial impression is that it is beyond comparable.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Gary,
 Y'all are in the transition zone there in "hotlanta." I think that the work involved in handwater bent during the 3 hot months (June, July and August) is a wash when you consider all the verticutting and topdress that these new ultradwarfts need...plus, you don't have to have crap greens for 2 months as you wait for the overseed to mature. I undstand why a course would have it though-less handwatering, less fungicide and faster in the summer.
  Yes-We have 2 courses here, Berkeley Hall and Belfair that have bentgrass and they are always flawless. In fact, I've played in on them in the early spring when they've been at 12+. I know of courses in Florida that have bent and even one that had it in West Palm beach. There is talk of a new one near Sea Island, GA having it.  I just boils down to how much money and time a course has to take care of it, which down here, you need a lot to take care of the bentgrass.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Bill_McBride]

We looked at the Champion for Pensacola CC, which is now completely reseeded with the greens in good old reliable Tifdwarf.

We are a bit farther south and will not be overseeding.  We had a lot of feedback about what Tony Nysse is talking about with the heavy maintenance required for Champion, that must be verticut and topdressed very frequently due to heavy thatch build  up.

I was talking to the super at Golf Club of Scottsdale in February.  I told him I had heard that Champion became a real maintenance problem after five years, and he said no, try two or three!

You don't have any of those problems to that extent with Tifdwarf, and ours run 10 in the winter.  That dormant Bermuda is a great winter surface if you can tolerate brown.

[Gary Daughters]

Tony and Bill --

Great info.  Thanks.

Could one of you explain the relationship between thatch buildup and top dressing?  Why A necessitates B?

[Bill_McBride]

Removing the thatch apparently disturbs the surface pretty violently, requiring top dressing to restore the smooth surface after a few days.

I'm not a turf guy so Tony can probably explain this better.  I am merely passing on what some pretty smart turf guys have told me.

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:  How firm are those bent greens down in Hilton Head?  How firm are the approaches?  To me that's the problem with bentgrass in high-stress conditions, it tends to be overwatered in the summer and winds up spongy.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Gary,
  To go off something that Bill was talking about, we got to about 3 years on our Tifeagle and the thatch accumulation just went sky high. We are currently verticutting and topdressing every 2 weeks, just to try to keep the thatch from getting out of control. This also includes 3 aerifications with the biggest tines they make. This is even with much lower recommended nitrogen levels. I know of several guys that would love to have there old tifdwarf back!
  The reason for all the v-cutting and topdressing to to try to remove the thatch and replace it with sand. The sand will allow for a firmer, smoother surface. Too much thatch makes for a surface that feels spungy and soft. In return, the thatch will not allow nutrients to penatrate the soil, will not allow for lower mowing heights, (because it will scalp severely) and hold water. If one lets the thatch get out of control, it can take year to regain a firm surface without re-grassing. It's a very nessesary evil, especially since we do overseed and none of this is done during the months of October -May. Overseeding only aids in gaining more thatch with cupping that do not get into the bucket and nitrogen for the poa triv. That's why we have to be so agressive in the summer months.
  This is a question that I've been thinking about alot recently-If a golf course does overseed and is north of Florida, why not have bentgrass? Considering all the verticutting, topdressing, sodding and "babying" that has to be done to bermuda grass greens, why not just put in bentgrass and have to handwater greens 3-4 months out of the year? I really think that a course would have a better playing surface year round as opposed to a course that overseeds. By the time we overseed and get out greens back to where we expect them, it's almost 2 month! Come the first of May, we begin to transition and sodding areas that didn't hold up during the winter. We figure on 4 or 5 days to have a very good surface after we v-cut and we do it every other week....I really beleive that Bentgrass will alway be superior to a green that's overseeded. Now, like Bill was saying, a course that doesn't overseed it's greens...a bit different story....

 Tom-The two courses down here are very strict about handwatering only with a light cycle at night. The approaches are treated like the greens when it comes to topdressing and v-cutting. I last played on them in April and actually thought that they were too firm...They do as good of a job as anybody.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Bill_McBride]

Tony, two thoughts:

1.  If you don't overseed your Bermuda hybrid greens and the members don't like the brown look, you can always paint them! It has to be done pretty frequently but you can definitely keep them green that way.

2.  I don't know about bent even north of the FL-GA line.  There are a lot of fans on greens north of that line because a green is in a hollow or tree enclosed.  The bent can't handle the humidity and the easiest thing to do is install some air circulation.  Unless you're ANGC and you can put in that under green system!

I forget the turf guru's name at Mississippi State, but he is not a fan of overseeding Tifdwarf or Tifeagle anywhere south of Atlanta, when you get up to 900'.

Bill

The Golf Club of Scottsdale's three year prediction re Champion maintenance nightmare was confirmed at Hilton Head, in spite of the huge difference in humidity and nightime low winter temps.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Bill,
  We have to overseed because of our VERY high amount of play. 1/3 of our greens wouldn't hold up to the traffic.(#2, 5, 6, 8, 11, 15) Many courses in our area paint, though many with high amounts of play, overseed. I totally understand about the fans and think that that would be a small price to pay to have consistant surfaces. Both Berkeley Hall and Belfair have portable subair systems, though rarely use them.

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Bill_McBride]

And that's a small price you pay for high traffic, right?    In today's market, high traffic is a good thing.

Sometimes the fans can be obtrusive as hell.  There is a solid private course in Ponte Vedra I've played a couple of times in warmer weather that has three or four R2-D2 fans oscillating around each green, right on the apron!  Very annoying but their bent grass lives on.

[Michael Whitaker]

While Champion MAY be comparable to a bent, bentgrass will always be superior-Give me Bentgrass!

As I consumer let me add my two cents... I agree that, overall, bent is a superior putting surface, but the only courses that I have seen successfully maintain it in South Carolina are private clubs with very large budgets and staff. The knock on bent in our hot humid climate is that it is only in "perfect" condition for a few weeks in the spring and a few weeks in the fall. The rest of the time it is either "coming" or "going."

Also, to Tom Doak's point... bent greens are almost ALWAYS soft on the courses in SC. I think it would be fair to say that the only courses in SC that can maintain bent and keep the greens firm are the ones with lots of money, people, and high tech equipment. I agree with Tony that the greens at Belfair are flawless... but, they've got the money to make them flawless. I played in the SC Senior Amateur at Belfair in May. You could not have asked for a better conditioned course, but I would not have called the conditions "firm & fast." Not even close. And, even in May they were monitoring the greens closely throughout the day.

For the average course, public or private, Champion provides a great putting surface that is true, firm, and doesn't scar the way bent does down here. The total amount of "quality" playing time delivered by Champion is easily double that offered by bent.

Again, these are my thoughts as a golfing consumer... not someone in the business who grows grass for a living. I don't understand all the behind the scenes activities that must happen to provide me with good greens. But, I've played over 50 different courses in SC over the last couple of years and, for the most part, everywhere I have encountered Champion it has been a big hit.

[Mike_Young]

I think one of the main issues could be cost on a new project.....the ultradwarf dessication is much less on high soil content and so it stands to reason that green construction could be mch less than for a bentgrass green.  JMO

[Chris Neff]

Hey Bill!
Plantation at Ponte Vedra renovated their bentgrass with Tifeagle about 7 years ago! They did have the fans and had them everywhere. They have struggled throughout because some of the membership really loved the bentgrass and misses the surface. Dave Lowe the super when they had bentgrass left and went to Bighorn when Plantation decided on Tifeagle. He grew Plantation in from the start and did a outstanding job with a very difficult growing condition.

 Tifeagle has been hit and miss in the North Florida. Some courses have really had some issues and eyebrows have been raised about the grass. There is one course in JAX called Glen Kernan that put Champion on their greens and tees. Some struggles in the beginning but from what I heard they are great now.

Hey Tony!
I think the course in WP is Old Marsh. Redstick in Vero Beach is bentgrass and it's very good. Scott Bell the super had bentgrass at Bent Pine before he went to Redstick. I remeber when Isleworth had bentgrass in the original design from Arnie. I agree with you Tony I saw Belfair's bentgrass in April and was impressed with the conditions. Mike Carn did a fantastic job keeping that Crenshaw alive and good. Hope all is well at Long Cove!  

[Bill_McBride]

Chris, I haven't played there for about 10 years, but not surprised the fans are gone.  Those things were very annoying!  But the bent greens were wonderful, you are right about that.  But what a price to pay.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Michael,
  I'm sure that part of the reson that the greens were a bit soft for the SC Sr. Am is the fact that they were going through a transition from the past superintendent to the new. At the time, their new super wasn't there. They new super, Randy Dallas, formally of Ocean Forest, started in late May. I would have to say that the courses with Bent down here have far superior greens that anyone come mid September through May, and I mean FAR superior. Like you said though, they have the money to take care of them....
  Chris,
  Yes, Mike did a great job with his bent and was the pioneer for bent in my area. I would have put his greens up against anyone. Old Marsh was the course that had bentgrass. Jim Colo had G-2 on his greens and they were awesome, but that's a little extreme for a course open year round. That's part of the reason that I did not take the assistant's job there 3 years ago. They converted to Tifeagle last summer. Redstick closes from May 15th to October 1st, so their stress on the the bent is less severe, but I'm sure still difficult! Life is good on my end Chris; We need to play sometime soon! Any new news on the renovations at TPC? I hope to get down there and see them this summer. Actually have a few of your members here today....hope they enjoy. We had 2" of rain yesterday....

Tony Nysse
Sr. Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC