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John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2006, 11:32:17 PM »
Here is one of Tim Kratz's original posts about Dismal River several months ago:

I am one of the principals in the Dismal River project and have some comments regarding the interesting posts on this thread.  

First, I am a passionate walker, to the point where I frequently try to obtain exceptions to allow me to walk courses with mandatory cart rules.  I have walked Dismal several times, and I believe it is a very walkable layout.  Of course, I also believe Sand Hills is very walkable, an opinion that may not be shared by others in this discussion group.  (I've played at least 50 rounds at Sand Hills, and I've walked it the majority of those times; the only exceptions being second and third rounds played in one day).  Tee to green distances generally are short at Dismal, but there are a few significant climbs to tee boxes, particularly the back tees on numbers 7 and 18.  One of the few absolute instructions we gave the Nicklaus design team, and something they wanted to do anyway, was make this a walkable golf course.  

Second, I agree it will be tough course from the back tees, particularly if the wind blows.  I think it will be very sporty and fun from the next set, and not overly difficult, though the bunkering near the greens will always make a big number a possibility.  As you probably can tell from the photos, the fairways are quite wide.  As such, we are hopeful that there will not be a large amount of frustration from players hitting three from the tee.  The big challenge at Dismal will be the approach shots to the greens and trying to make sure you don't miss it in the wrong place.  There will be some frustrations around the greens, but I think those are the sort of frustrations that make golf interesting and challenging, not the kind that make you vow to never return.  I agree with John Kirk that it can make for a long and unpleasant experience to be searching the native all day long for lost balls.  I also believe it can be an amusing and interesting experience to watch a member of your own group, preferably your opponent, roll a putt off the green and fifty yards down the fairway.  I have seen this happen many times on both numbers 1 and 4 at Sand Hills, and, even when it happened to me, I actually thought it was a tad bit humorous.  Very, very little dirt was moved for the green sites at Dismal.  They have a huge amount of natural undulation.  People will occasionally putt off the green.  Hopefully, they'll laugh about it later.  

Also, regarding degree of difficulty, I believe that the members at Dismal River, as they begin to learn the course, will create their own layouts which are most suitable to their abilities.  By this, I mean there is certainly no requirement that a group play every hole from a particular set of tees.  I think even the very low handicappers may choose to bypass the back tees on number two.  Players will mix and match tee boxes freely, and, in essence, create their own course.  Also, as most of you know, the course is above 3000 feet, and the fairways will play hard and fast.  So, the length is not nearly as much of a concern as it might be at another location.      

Regarding the photo of number 15, I am not entirely clear as to what the focus is regarding the "oddity" of the bunkering.  I think it will be an extremely fun hole and not tremendously hard.  There is room to run up the shot on the right side if needed, but, as pointed out previously, the hole is not so long that a run-up is necessarily the play (depending, of course, on the wind).  There also is more room directly in front of the green than you can tell from the photo.  I would guess that many players will aim for the far right side of the green.  If you miss a little to the right, you may end up right by the pin after you bounce down the bank.  You cannot see it from the photo, but there is a large collection area directly to the left and rear of the green.  The chip/putt/utility wood shot from that area is not particularly difficult as the green is sloping directly towards you and the ball will stop quickly.  I don't think this hole is nearly as hard as No. 17 at Sand Hills.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great courses I've been to recently
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2006, 11:38:09 PM »
Bill:

Compelled?  He chose to.

Baseless?  Tell that to those that have played or seen Dismal and were moved to speak.

In hindsight I should have waited to ask a question about the course.  Of course, I didn't realize few had been there yet since I haven't paid any attention to their progress.  They haven't even "opened".  News to me.

What makes this site great is that nearly all members are passionate, some are knowledgable, and a few (like the principal at Dismal) are insiders.

Ask a question about the meaning of the Doak Scale at your club and you'll get peoples' attempts to answer.  Maybe.  Ask it here and you'll probably get a reply from Tom Doak.

I didn't post on here during college basketball season.  A 6-month or so hiatus.  Did GolfClubAtlas.com become a rah-rah site over that timeframe?  If so, let me add....

I played Skyview at Terra Vista and it is SOOOOOO good that I didn't even once think I would have rather been across the street playing the quarry holes at Black Diamond Ranch!

and

Forget Scotland, just fly in to DFW and have your driver take you to The Colony for a round at The Tribute.  One guy I was with said it is the best course he's EVER PLAYED!  (Do I need to mention that he's been playing for only a year?  The story is much better if I leave that out.)

P.S. to JB - sorry for the "driver" comment... I'll make it up to ya'!  ;)

W.H. Cosgrove

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2006, 11:44:27 PM »
John,

I take umbrance to your implied reference that the Frank Lloyd Wright gas station in Cloquet, MN is not great architecture!  And, I think they should restore it to original form by getting rid of that dry cleaners they tacked on the back...... ;D

RJ,


I don't know about the dry cleaners but the bathrooms are in lpitiful condirtion and should be restored to their original splendor.  Frank L. Wright should have a museum in the ante room outside said rest rooms!

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2006, 11:46:14 PM »
John Kirk, thanks for sharing.  Did I read you shot 69 somewhere recently?  Maybe Dismal isn't going to be hard enough for you!

To anyone or everyone, listen, I certainly didn't pay much attention to the comments I'd heard which is why I asked a very opinionated group for addition opinions.

That approach has never failed me before.

The only reason I didn't get the necessary responses this time is that people from this site have not been there yet.  Plug in another remote course like Cape Breton Highlands, the Links of North Dakota at Red Mike Ranch, or Paa-Ko Ridge and I suspect there would be enough opinions from people I am familiar with to form my own preconception.

In a month I'll know if this course is the equal of Lakota Canyon and if it is I can safely say it is one of the world's top ten.

In three months I'll know what a few others think of the course.

In three years we'll know if magazine rankings have it in the stratosphere with Pacific Dunes, a rung below with Sutton Bay, or somewhere else.

The same can be said for Ballyneal, Erin Hills, and the Abaco Club.

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2006, 09:35:41 AM »

One rhetorical question... if he's still alive, will the honorary inaugural dual club champion be Jim Stefanich?  


Well,  Jim is a hall of fame bowler who had a beautiful stroke and was also an excellent golfer, trying the senior circuit back in the early 90s.

He would certainly be the senior club champion.  Doubt he could keep up with the younger members even though he was 'long' in his day. Jim would be about 65 today; have no idea of his whereabouts.

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ding Ding Ding
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2006, 09:58:00 AM »
John Stiles is right!  Jim Stefanich won at least two bowling Majors in the late 60s and then played the Senior Tour.

If I were in charge of marketing the bowling aspect of Dismal River I'd sure try to make him the celeb on the brochure!  Makes more sense than Kenny Rogers for Barona Creek.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2006, 10:22:01 AM »
Websites and discussion groups sure work in amazing ways. After reading this thread, I imagine the following story, purely hypothetical, of course.

Guy posts a thread suggesting that he's heard a Mr. Smith might be of suspect character. Then, when numerous people disavow the post and even vouch for Mr. Smith, the original poster thanks them and lauds the entire enterprise for its ability to generate a more balanced account of Mr. Smith.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 10:23:07 AM by Brad Klein »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2006, 11:10:06 AM »
Brad, exactly.  But you left out that people may not know Mr. Smith (which seems to have happened often here) or that they could confirm that Mr. Smith is of ill repute (which will happen if you start a thread on Michelle Wie, the Bridge, or Sand Pines).

My formula works like this:

  ambitious upscale project
+ Jack Nicklaus design
+ intriguing site in the Sand Hills of Nebraska
------------------------------
  course I should probably like

Imagine my surprise when the first account was to the contrary.

One reason I've chosen not to give the account a lot of credence is that one knock is "too many blind shots".  I could go on and on about this peeve of many golfers, but my initial response is to say they may not have played the hole as intended and that nobody said you have to WYSIWYG every shot in 18 holes of golf.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2006, 11:28:29 AM »
John, imagine my surprise when . . . .

my best friend at the time didn't exactly warm to my new girlfreind, who would go on to become my wife. I started realizing that my friend wasn't really my friend, and he no longer is, but she's still my wife.

The point is, find out for yourself, but I think the Web is an odd place to be determining judgments, since in the process, you set certain perceptions in motion and also create legends and reputations without realizing that you're complicitious in reinforcing them.

Not, by the way, that seeing a course and playing it is enough either. Way too many people end up judging a course on the basis of how well or poorly they play it, or they don't do their homework before, during and after to find out how the project developed, got built and evolved.

That's why I also think that there's no ultimate test of seeing/playing a course. Way too many others think that there's some inherent authority in playing a place, so they travel around the country in their caravans and helicopter in to bless the place with their presence and think that confers upon them the right to be authoritative on this Website or with their buddies. My point, simply, is that to judge a place, it helps to do some advanced scouting, ask folks at the place questions and let folks involved in the process explain what they were trying to do. Then you have a firmer basis for your own judgment.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2006, 01:23:18 AM by Brad Klein »

Tim Pitner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2006, 11:38:27 AM »
My point, simply, is that to judge a place, it helps to do some advanced scouting, ask folks ath e place questions and let folks invovled in the process explain what they were trying to do. Then you have a firmer basis for your own judgment.

Jeez, can't we just play the course and evaluate how the course plays?  I'm not sure I give a damn what the "folks involved in the process" were trying to do if I don't like the way the course plays.  And, I don't mean just how it plays for me on that particular day.  Usually, if you're not too caught up in your own game, you can see how a hole could be or ought to be played, even if you fail to execute the shots on a given day.  Brad, I know you're a golf journalist so you can be forgiven for perhaps over-complicating the process.  For the rest of us, just playing the course ought to be enough and, if it isn't, maybe the course isn't worth the effort.  
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 11:39:39 AM by Tim Pitner »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2006, 01:27:28 AM »
Tim,

fair enough point. If the course isn't interesting and fun to play then it doesn't matter what folks intended, it doesn't work. I only meant to suggest that by talking to a few folks in the process, you'll understand more and perhaps have a better understanding of the place, but of course it has to come out in the wash, i.e. in the playing.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2006, 09:38:08 AM »
I think John wanted to draw out some opinions on the course, and he pulled out the tried-and-tested method of getting responses to a thread: use a deliberately over the top thread name.

We've all started threads hoping for many posts, only to watch them die quickly on the vine. The best way - unfortunately - to draw out responses is to be as provocative as possible.

The obvious downside to this - as has been illustrated on this thread - is that the focus oftens shifts to the originator, as opposed to the topic he wished to discuss. I learned this the hard way several years ago.

Sometimes a question is just a question, no matter how harsh is may sound. Sometimes it's best to ignore the vitriol and try to answer it. Sometimes it's best to never go over the top to begin with. Fine lines abound.

One other thing I've learned is to not take anyone's opinion as a given without fleshing it out a bit. Everyone has his or her own pet peeves.

I think it sounds interesting that there is a really difficult course in the sandhills. Should provide some interesting contrast and discussion.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2006, 01:59:15 PM »

....We've all started threads hoping for many posts, only to watch them die quickly on the vine.....

Really? I thought that was just me.....
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2006, 02:06:34 PM »

....We've all started threads hoping for many posts, only to watch them die quickly on the vine.....

Really? I thought that was just me.....

It is, Jeff, I just didn't have the heart to single you out.

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2006, 02:10:09 PM »
Thanks for taking my back, George!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #65 on: September 20, 2011, 08:05:27 PM »
Tim:  Well, if you wanted to get good press on GCA.com, you should have hired me :) ... but of course I was already committed elsewhere.

Since I'm sure you have played the course, and I know you've played Sand Hills, how would you compare the difficulty and playability of the two?  The one thing I noticed in the pictures were a fair number of elevated greens -- of course Sand Hills has a few of those, too.

And so it shall be.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2011, 08:10:46 PM »
Good for you John,

I'm way outside the loop on this stuff, but the sea change with respect to Dismal River is disappointing in that it's hard to take the rest seriously.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #67 on: September 20, 2011, 08:25:57 PM »
The saddest part of all is that they never built the bowling alley. 

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #68 on: September 20, 2011, 08:45:22 PM »
Wow, this is funny!

John, next time you come out, I'll take you to the Mullen (former Hondo) Lanes in Mullen.  They just redid part of it and it is very cool, very underrated. They did get some crap from the purists for redoing part of it, but the improvement are wonderful.  It was was too hard before but now the people who use it, absolutely love it.

Afterwards, we can grab a beer at Red's or a shake at Paul's.  The newly renovated Rustic has a great pizza.  I can stop at Macke's to get Jagger some dip and Busch light after stopping to see Ron Boyer at NebraskaLand to get some money for the dip.

The Tom Doak comment was priceless.  And so it shall be!


Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #69 on: September 20, 2011, 11:26:54 PM »
Lucky this got bumped -- we don't hear enough about Dismal. Aren't they building a second course or something?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #70 on: September 20, 2011, 11:43:12 PM »
Lucky this got bumped -- we don't hear enough about Dismal. Aren't they building a second course or something?

Scott,

If you don't think it is interesting that Doak said on July 5, 2006 to one of the ex owners of Dismal that he would have garnered better press if he had been the hire than you have spent too much time reading about the revenue of cart ball.

I believe this is an important thread because it might teach a lesson to the raters who have been short sighted on their reviews of Awarii Dunes. Awarii has sadly opened too soon. It too will be a great course in 5 years. Owners deserve better.

Note:  Awarii already had to lower prices. Good for the critics and rumor mongers.

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #71 on: September 21, 2011, 12:25:31 AM »

The Tom Doak comment was priceless.  And so it shall be!




So one must ask, is the excitement around Dismal River because Chris stepped up and acquired the property or because he hired Doak?   

If there were no plans to build a second course, would DR be a polarizing topic?


"... and I liked the guy ..."

Jim Colton

Re: Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #72 on: September 21, 2011, 01:04:23 AM »
Wow, this is funny!


Unless your name is Tim Kratz

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #73 on: September 21, 2011, 04:47:38 AM »

The Tom Doak comment was priceless.  And so it shall be!




So one must ask, is the excitement around Dismal River because Chris stepped up and acquired the property or because he hired Doak?   

If there were no plans to build a second course, would DR be a polarizing topic?




Polarizing?  Now that is funny. I didn't know it still was. Please explain.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Dismal River: How bad can it be?
« Reply #74 on: September 21, 2011, 08:59:53 AM »
Lucky this got bumped -- we don't hear enough about Dismal. Aren't they building a second course or something?

Good call.  What would you like to hear more about?  Pine Valley, NGLA, template holes, Ballyneal, or any of the other things that have been talked about ad nauseum.  Finally this board has something it wants: an in depth look at the transformation of a golf course and the building of a Doak course that could be one of the greatest ever.  We are getting the inside look we always wished for and yet people are tired of it?

Certainly people weren't complaining about all of the information on Old Macdonald.  People on this site would have LOVED to get the inside look on Old Mac that we are getting here. In fact, people couldn't get enough.  I wonder what the difference is....
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

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