[Rob_Waldron]

We are considering a trip to Kohler to take in the Pete Dye extravaganza at Whisting Straits. I understand there are four courses: Straits, Irish, River, and Meadows/Valley. Any inside poop on what to do while there. Is the town of Kohler worth visiting? Any input is appreciated.

[Steve Lapper]

Rob,

  Save your $$ and go to Bandon 2X

[Wyatt Halliday]

Ergo...............Bandon is twice as nice??

[Jonathan McCord]

Rob,

I will be sure to let you know.  My friend and I are heading to Kohler to play the Irish and Straits on July 4th.  I'm sure we will visit the town of Kohler and I'll be sure to take some pictures.

I will be back at a computer on July 10th.  You'll have a full report of the courses and Kohler.

[grandwazo]

Been to both places, and I would not go back to WS.  Whistling is very nice, don't get me wrong, but personally, after playing the Straits twice, I have no interest in playing it again.  I felt the bunkering to be un natural and over the top.  I felt that the Irish, the Meadows and the Straits were all inconsistent in their design and at one point or another, all gave in to the constraints of the property or irrigation requirements.  The River Course was the only one that stayed true to itself through out.  All that being said, the hotel is very nice, the staff extremely courteous and helpful.  The dining options were relatively limited, but what was available was very good.  Am I glad I went, yes.  Would I go back, no.  

I have also been to Bandon, and can't wait to get back, the golf is far superior, as is the overall environment and facility.  If you haven't been, you need to get there first.  Chances are, after that, you'll want to go back before going anywhere eelse.

[Jonathan McCord]

All of a sudden I'm not so fired up to play Whistling!!!

[TaylorA]

The Straits course is a great golf course. Lot's of fun, interesting, different and really a challenging golf course. The River Course is also a very strong course - and very difficult. I have not seen the Irish or Meadows course, so I can't comment.

The American Club is very nice, though I thought the high end restaurant (can't recall the name...) is over priced. The Kohler Design center is really interesting, if you're interested in really cool toilets. Seriously, the design center is a good tour.

Kohler is a quaint town, but not much going on.

Try this link, which is a Google search for "Kohler" on this site. A lot of great information.

http://tinyurl.com/hfmrw

[Matt_Ward]

Rob:

The facilities are indeed first rate -- ditto the prices in season. In regards to the golf you will enjoy the Straits Course -- ditto the River Course at Blackwolf Run.

Unfortunately, the companion course to the Straits -- the Irish -- is simply Pete on massive overdosing of all the combinations of items he can create. There's even a blind par-3 13th hole on the Irish. Bizarre doesn't capture the place.

One other thing -- at the Straits be prepared for the longest of rounds. The play does draaaaaaaaaaaaag as every Joe and Jane wants to handle the place where Vijay won.

If you are dead set to go to Wisconsin try Lawsonia or even make a side trip to Marquette, MI and play Greywalls because the people, golf and vaca options are just as prevalent there as you will find in Kohler.

Just be sure to have a back-up credit card because exhausting one there is not very difficult.

[Andy Troeger]

I went on a package last year to play all four courses. Personally I love the River Course and think its the best of the four, I really love the 5-13 stretch that was added, and 16-18 are great finishers as well. The Meadow Valleys back nine is just about as good (and 12-18 are just as good), but the first 11 holes or so are just ok, but its very expensive for ok

I enjoyed playing the Straits course and would say its worth playing once, even at the expensive fee. I don't think I'd go play it again for the $300 or whatever it is though...maybe on some kind of special.  I'd go back for the River Course even if it is expensive!

If there's a 3 day package, I'd skip the Irish Course...not my cup of tea!

Very much worth going all told though I think, especially for the Blackwolf Run courses that have been somewhat overshadowed by their newer neighbors!

[TaylorA]

Jonathon-

I think the comparisons to Bandon are a bit unfair. Whistling Straits is one of the best modern (IMO, one of the best period) golf courses in the country. You're going to have a superb time on the Straits course. I'd go back and play Whistling in a heartbeat and not think twice about the cost.

You should really be looking forward to a course that's going to challenge you in every way and the scenery will distract you if you ever get bored with the golf - which you won't. Even if the approaches aren't true to links golf and all the bunkering and contouring are man-made, appreciate the golf course for what is. Not what some want it to be.

[Steve Lapper]

Jonathon-

I think the comparisons to Bandon are a bit unfair. Whistling Straits is one of the best modern (IMO, one of the best period) golf courses in the country. You're going to have a superb time on the Straits course. I'd go back and play Whistling in a heartbeat and not think twice about the cost.

You should really be looking forward to a course that's going to challenge you in every way and the scenery will distract you if you ever get bored with the golf - which you won't. Even if the approaches aren't true to links golf and all the bunkering and contouring are man-made, appreciate the golf course for what is. Not what some want it to be.

Why is it unfair? Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails (and to an only slightly lesser extent, Bandon Dunes) all rightfully fall ahead of Whistling Straights (WS) in all the categorys you cite. I can easily appreciate any new course for what it is (just see the recent Bayonne Golf Club) thread and not for what I want it to be, but WS is a very good, not great,  course. Remember that not only does WS have approaches that aren't true to links golf, but they have features that don't even play true to the principles of links golf.

Bandon has 2-2.5 great courses and WS has, at best 1-1.5. Add to it that Bandon is approximately half the price and doesn't try to stick it's hand in your pocket incessantly, and that adds up to an overwhelming victory for the Bandon complex.

Sorry to say it, but WS is at the bottom third of the top ten Moderns, far behind the likes of Sand Hills, PD, Friars Head, Sebonac, Kiawah Ocean, TPC Sawgrass, BT/BD. Pretty soon, WS and the River Course won't even be the top two in the state as Erin Hills promises to open shortly. WS is indeed nice, but is surely being eclipsed by better and more affordable efforts. Now you tell us what's a fair comparison!

[Tim Pitner]

I haven't been to Kohler and I have no intention of raining on anyone's parade; from what I hear, the River Course and Whistling Straits are well worth playing.  

As someone who has just come back from Bandon and has debated in the past whether to go back to Bandon or try something new like a Kohler or a Pinehurst, I just have to say how hard it is to go anywhere but Bandon when you're looking for that kind of trip (guys' outing, lots of golf).  Let's see, the golf courses are probably better (and certainly different from the kind of courses most people play), the area is more scenic, and it's significantly cheaper.  Obviously, there is great golf elsewhere, but for a destination resort, it's awfully hard to beat Bandon.  Of course, I live in the West so proximity is a factor too.

[TaylorA]

Why is it unfair? Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails (and to an only slightly lesser extent, Bandon Dunes) all rightfully fall ahead of Whistling Straights (WS) in all the categorys you cite. I can easily appreciate any new course for what it is (just see the recent Bayonne Golf Club) thread and not for what I want it to be, but WS is a very good, not great,  course. Remember that not only does WS have approaches that aren't true to links golf, but they have features that don't even play true to the principles of links golf.

Bandon has 2-2.5 great courses and WS has, at best 1-1.5. Add to it that Bandon is approximately half the price and doesn't try to stick it's hand in your pocket incessantly, and that adds up to an overwhelming victory for the Bandon complex.

Sorry to say it, but WS is at the bottom third of the top ten Moderns, far behind the likes of Sand Hills, PD, Friars Head, Sebonac, Kiawah Ocean, TPC Sawgrass, BT/BD. Pretty soon, WS and the River Course won't even be the top two in the state as Erin Hills promises to open shortly. WS is indeed nice, but is surely being eclipsed by better and more affordable efforts. Now you tell us what's a fair comparison!

Well, the reason it's unfair is that Johnathon is in Michigan, which is much closer to WS than Bandon. Second, you're making the assumption that Johnathon is seeking a pure links experience, which I don't know that he's stated that. Kohler is obviously not that given the Meadows and River course are far from a links type experience.  To me the resorts are totally different, which is why I don't think the comparisons are fair. They cater to different types of golf, a different price point and are in vastly different locations in the country. It may be cheaper to golf at Bandon, but it may be much more expensive (and time consuming) to actually get there!

I'm not saying anything bad at all about Bandon, to be clear. I think Bandon is an amazing golf destination with great golf courses. (Although I have not played or walked Bandon, just read a lot and seen what little we get of it on TV via shows like Wandering Golfer.) For all I know, Bandon's course(s) may be far superior to WS. I just thought the comparisons are unfair - just about ANY golf vacation will pale to a trip to Bandon.

We'll have to agree to disagree that WS is or is not a great course. But if you put WS in the top 10 of modern golf courses, I don't know how you can't call it a great course.

Before I'm ready to toss in the towel and crown Erin, I'll wait until I get a chance to see it. It's definitely an exciting project and I'm looking forward to seeing it.

[JR Potts]

I have to disagree with the majority here.  I've been up to Kohler approximately 10 times to play.  I absolutely love it.  

Grandwazo is right that there are a couple of holes on the River, Meadows and Irish that are out of place and inconsistent in their design but they are all enjoyable golf courses.

Moreover, the conditioning is always top notch and the staff at the courses is awesome.  

In my opinion, Whistling Straits (and the River course) are both must play courses.  Already, they both have a great history.  Straits is expensive but the views alone make it worthwhile.  From a design standpoint, there is plenty to discuss (read criticize) but that is the fun of it.

Kohler and Sheboygan (sp?) are clean, small Midwest towns that are dependent on the resort.  However, there are some great restuarants and the townsfolk make you feel very welcome.

The Kohler Resort is one of the nicest resports I have ever been to.  The restuarants and bars are great (skip the Immigrant Room - high end place) and the spa is out of this world.  And the Kohler design studio is a don't miss.

I wholeheartedly recommend Kohler.  You will not be disappointed.

[And I heard that the Bull is a good course; Erin Hills is only an hour away and Milwaukee is only about 45 mintues away]

[Sean Leary]

Jeez this is a tough crowd to please.

I have been to Kohler only once and to Bandon 10 times, but I would go back to Kohler in a minute. The courses are fabulous with the Irish being the weakest and the Straits being the stongest.  I didn't find the Straits to be that unnatural, and it is a blast to play.  It is absolutely worth the trip to go there. Pricewise, it may be a little more expensive but it is exorbitant either way, so...

Also, I hope you are good players because the courses are very difficult...

[jpenkwitz]

Everyone should play it once...generate your own opinion.  It's a first class facility...all four courses worth playing.  If in Kohler...your only 1 1/2 hours from a hidden gem at Lawsonia in Green Lake.   In the top 100 classic courses.  Worth the trip.  

[Frank Pasquale]

I have been to Kohler, and played 3 of the 4 (did not play the Irish).  I was very impressed, and enjoyed the River course the most.  I am not a design expert like many of the others in here, but I can say that I played the River and the Straits once each, and I remember the holes and routing of the River course much clearer.  That must say something, right?

I really want to get to Bandon someday, but the travel will be difficult.  Any advice for someone who would be traveling from NY?

[Andy Troeger]

I've never been to Bandon and would certainly love to go, but I find it hard to believe the scenery can be much better there than at the River Course or the Straits Course. I could stand on the tee at #5 River all day long! I just wish I could get up to #4 at Banff Springs, talk about wow factor!

The cost thing is there, but if you're going to play at Bandon or Kohler you really can't be thinking in terms of value. Bandon is more reasonable in terms of golf, but as mentioned that only works for those that have a way of getting there. I could play at Kohler much more reasonably than Bandon due to the travel issues, plus its a 4 hour drive instead of a whole days travel. That explains why I've actually done one and not the other!

EDIT: By the way, the restaurant/food at Blackwolf Run is very good, we had an enjoyable lunch out on the back patio overlooking both #18's, good food and great setting!

[Matt_Ward]

Guys hold the phone please.

For those of you gushing about Whistling Straits the high likelihood is that you are being wowed by the superb customer service that is the hallmark of going there.

The American Club is ineed impressive on that score.

The bigger question?

Does the golf match the customer service and facility side?

The answer is yes & no. The Straits is indeed a marvelous layout but as Steve L has mentioned it is not a pure links type course or anything similar to it. Pete did a fine job but frankly it's not a layout that is cutting some new ground on what it provides although I will candidly admit the closing two holes never suffer any fools.

The Irish is simply a concocted layout that borders on the silly side of things. No doubt the River Course at Blackwolf Run is worth a play and arguably is right there with the Straits for overall quality. The Meadows Course is also a reasonable layout and worth a play but for anyone to think the Meadow is in the same league as Lawsonia Links would be a big time error on their part.

Given what someone will pay for staying there in the prime time of summer I think it becomes a question of what is worth it for your wallet.

P.S. I can't stress enough the gridlock conditions when playing the Straits -- it's faster watching paint dry than getting around the layout.

[JR Potts]

You got me thinking about the inconsistent/dysfuncational holes on the Kohler property.

Please feel free to add/subtract

RIVER
Hole 4
Hole 15
[both holes arund this lake seem too exposed and too contrived]

IRISH
Hole 2
Hole 14 - just a dumb hole
Hole 17
Hole 18
[17 and 18 are probably the two worst finishing holes of any course I have ever played.  I enjoyed playing the course, but 17 and 18 left me feeling deflated after the round.  18 is a par 5 and there is nowhere for a mid-handicapper to hit their second shot]

STRAITS
Hole 5
Hole 6
Hole 11
[Hole 5 had the potential to be a great par 5.  The lake on the left absolutely ruined it.  I would like to know if anyone knows whether this lake was dug or let remian.  The 6th hole is a neat lay-out but is totally ruined by the green.  11, like 6, is ruined by the green complex in my opinion.  The railroad ties don't do it for me and don't fit within the structure of the course]


MEADOW
Every hole is dysfunctional when juxtoposed with another.  However, I find it to be a blast to play.  13, 14 and 15 are three of the best holes on the premises in my estimation.

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

Define "dysfunctional" by your terms ?

And, after you do -- outline holes at the facility that are top notch by any definition you wish to apply.

Thanks ...

[Matt Kardash]

The fact that someone says the 11th at the straits is a bad hole makes me question the sanity of our species. Ok, I get it if you don't like the 5th because of the ponds that Pete had to create (mind you, the hole itself is a fun hole...it just doesn't fit). However, the 11th is BY FAR the best par 5 on the course, and one of the best holes on the course.

[JR Potts]

Ryan:

Define "dysfunctional" by your terms ?

And, after you do -- outline holes at the facility that are top notch by any definition you wish to apply.

Thanks ...

The meaning of dysfunctional as used - does not fit the overall theme of the course.  One hole has no relation to the next.  Confused as it relates to the hole before it and the hole after it.

And clarification - I never said that 11 was a "bad" hole.  I said the green complex (specifically the railroad ties) did not fit.  I think a different kind of grading could have had the same effect and been more consistent with the terrain.

Another correction - Hole 14 is the one by the lake on the River, not 15.

Top Notch
RIVER
Hole 3
Hole 5
Hole 9
Hole 12
Hole 16

IRISH
Hole 1
[I don't remember, in great detail, holes 7-11]
Hole 15
Hole 16

MEADOW
Hole 2
Hole 13
Hole 14
Hole 15

STRAITS
Hole 1
Hole 2
Hole 3
Hole 4
Hole 8
Hole 10
Hole 13
Hole 14
Hole 16
Hole 17
Hole 18

Thanks for the quiz....

[Andy Troeger]

I'd add #1, 8, and 11 to top notch holes at the River, and I have no real issue with #4 or 14. I'm not a big fan of #13, as the shot is too difficult to not have any kind of "bail out" option.

I would have put #16 as one of my least favorite holes on the Irish, two hard to hit the fairway considering the apparent death on either side for missing it on a 475 yd par 4. #15 was impossible too, but I felt like I at least had a fighting chance there. Did like #10 up the hill, and #6 with the green surrounded by sand.

I did not care for #18 at the Straits course. I hit a good drive there and had 250 left with my best option being to hit it 75 yards further up the fairway so I could have a chance to get on from there. It might be better from shorter tees. I preferred #15 to that one.

[Steve Lapper]

Let me clarify a few things. Kohler is a nice experience and quite luxe. WS & BW (River) are definitely tracks worth going to play at least once or twice. The $$, pace-of-play and plush resort-style feel are slight negatives compared to my opinions of Bandon. If you live close (w/in driving distance) to either, it's only natural to possess an immediate bias.

I won't tear apart hole-by-holes because WS isn't by any means a "weak" track and a few holes among the Bandon triplex earn fair criticism. I'll even conced that all of them are GREAT courses. The big plus and what I absolutely love about Bandon is the purity of spirit, the lodging by the coast, the mandatory & brisk walking pace,  the links-style play, and the distance from which you feel removed from the worries of the world. That purity of spirit doesn't exist or just isn't compelling at Kohler.

As for Erin, you are right...it might be a tad too early to coronate it. But I've seen lots of unpublished, upclose pix that leave me feeling that this a very, very special place and lead me to believe this track will be the USGA's Midwest adopted and annointed 18.

Taylor A,
I always like leaving it at "we agree to disagree! "



PS....having lived in Chicago for 14yrs.....I'll be glad to see the Midwest return to greater National prominence.

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