[ForkaB]

....and (largely) crafted by a complete amateur.

Where and when?

[Patrick_Mucci]

NGLA

[Paul_Lorenzen]

Merion

[ForkaB]

Pat and Paul

Nice tries, but a better finish and a more purely amateur architect.

[Jordan Wall]

Oakmont

[wsmorrison]

Rich,

In my US experience, I think the finish and the entire course at both Merion and Pine Valley are extraordinary; as good as I've ever seen anywhere.  Oakmont is right up there as well.  Huntingdon Valley is an awfully good finish as is Lancaster CC.

In the UK, I don't know about amateur designers, but I highly regard the finishing holes at The Old Course, Muirfield and Carnoustie.  

[TEPaul]

The toughest finish I've ever known in golf is the last five holes of Merion East. If the toughest constitutes the finest then I'd say it's Merion East. I can definitely guarantee I'm certainly not alone in that opinion. Basically those last five holes have become famous for that. From having played a lot of tournaments over there through the years I can sure tell you that last five holes isn't that far from your mind throughout most of the round.

[peter_p]

1839. Alan Robertson. Carnoustie?

[Jay Flemma]

well if its a purely amateur it can't be NGLA (which I still would vote for if it weren't for) PINE VALLEY?

[ForkaB]

Thanks for the additional thoughts.

The work has been mentioned but the artist not yet properly identified.

PS--once the question has been answered, I think it would be interesting to debate the two parts of the premise.

1.  There are a number of good candidates for best finish which have been posited.  Why have various people (including me) nominated who they have?
2.  Why have so many great finishes (and great courses) been built by amateurs?

[Jim Johnson]

I believe Jay has it right...Pine Valley...designed by Mr. George Crump [with help from others]...completed in 1921 [?] I think.

JJ

[ForkaB]

J2

You and J1 are entitled to your opinion, but Pine Valley/Crump is neither the course not the architect that I am thinking of.

[Sean_A]

Rich

I am assuming Carnasty (Carnicety to you) is the course.  You visited not long ago and murmured a positive note or two.  I know a local chap redisigned the finish, but not sure when - perhaps not long after WWII in preparation for the Hogan's Open.  I want to say Orville Wright was his name because it sounds groovy.  My memory is poor, but Wright (or some such variation of spelling) fits in somewhere.

PS  Despite my lack of enthusiasm for Carnasty (which is most likely due to my lack of skills both in identifying greatness and in hitting a ball) I think you could well be correct in identifying its finish as the finest in golfdom.

Ciao

Sean

[ForkaB]

That's close as dammit, Sean.  You win the Palme D'or!

The finish at Carnoustie was changed radically in 1931 from Braid's resdesign of 1926.  When the Scottish Amateur was held there in 1930 the course finished 339, 335, 150, 365, and it was generally accepted that it was just too easy.  The (British) Open was coming next year.  So, the James Wright, an accountant and Captain of the Dalhousie Club (one of the several clubs whose members had and have rights over the course) decided that the finish needed to be strengthened, and compressed the 4 holes into 3, giving us the 245, 433, 444 finish we know today (the greensite of the 16th was changed by Cotton later on from a punchbowl to a convex shape).  The lead in to those 3 finishing holes are Braid's, except for the fine short 13th which Wright built to replace the 17th which he had eliminated.  When you add Braid's (current) 10-12 and 14-15, the back 9 at Carnoustie is really unparalleled in golfdom, IMO.

Of the other courses mentioned above that I have played, Merion's 13-18 is good, but not nearly as good.  NGLA doesn't really compare.

As far as I know, tinkering with Carnoustie was all that Wright ever did vis a vis GCA.  But, what tinkering!

--edited for tyops--

[Tommy_Naccarato]

No! I want the Palme D'or! the Palm D'or is mine!

I know Peter was mentioning Carnoustie's Alan Robertson course, but I can' t imagine anyone wanting to leave off Braid's With the Spectacles at #15, That horredously diifficult par 3 @ #16, the wonderfully quirky [and originally natural) Jockey Burn that weaves in & out all around #17, and then that bastard (in VanDeVeldian terms) #18, well, it is no slouch!

[Brian Phillips]

Rich,

Does this mean you are doing another book now on Carnoustie...if so....bring it on and good luck!!

Still waiting for TOC book...

Brian

[ForkaB]

Yes, Brian.

"Experience Carnoustie" is well underway.  As for "Experience the Old Course," it is in print, but so brilliant that the authorities won't release it until they are sure that their liability insurance is in place so that if anybody drops dead from viewing its magnificence they are covered!

Rich

[Anthony Butler]

Rich,

In my US experience, I think the finish and the entire course at both Merion and Pine Valley are extraordinary; as good as I've ever seen anywhere.  Oakmont is right up there as well.  Huntingdon Valley is an awfully good finish as is Lancaster CC.  

Have not played NGLA, but I'm voting for Cypress Point over Pine Valley... Winged Foot though not as visually spectacular is a heck of a finish-as we saw last week. It's almost like 16-18 are a distillation of everything good on the previous 15 holes.

You can't beat CPC though. Apart from the stunning scenery (even the many great photos taken do it no justice) the ocean breeze is such that it only has to shift 15 degrees to present a very different challenge for the 4 closing holes.

[Jay Flemma]

All right Rich, I'll bite.  Help us out here...why is it "the best" and not merely "The hardest?"  

Could we agree Pine Valley is the finest finish in American Golfdom?

[Bill_McBride]

I truly love Oakmont's finish as well.  The long par 4 15th, with very demanding shots and a difficult green.  Long par 3 16th with slippery slopes and deep bunker.  Wicked short par 4 17th, birdie or double bogey potential, and difficult long par 4 18th finisher.

Great variety of holes with a devilish short par 4, unusual for a finishing stretch.

I haven't played Carnoustie (but was absolutely enthralled by Van de Velde's Flopsy-style meltdown), but it does look backbreaking.  I think that's why I give the nod to Oakmont.

Not to disagree with Rich of course!  

[ForkaB]

Jay

To me, "best" is a combination of number of things, including but not limited to:  challenge, variety, changes in direction, difficulty, "shot values," ability to bring a smile to one's face, etc.).

Haven't played Pine Valley so don't know.  I was also thinking of "true" amateur architects, so guys like Fowners, Crump, Macdonald, Sutherland, etc. who laboured over their courses for years, don't really count.  Wright had a day job.

Anthony

CPC can't be considered because Dr. MacK was a pro.  Also saves us from having to have that nasty little debate about the quality (or relative lack thereof) of 15-18 yet again....

Bill

Haven't played Oakmont either.  Boy am I deprived!

[Anthony Butler]

Jay

To me, "best" is a combination of number of things, including but not limited to:  challenge, variety, changes in direction, difficulty, "shot values," ability to bring a smile to one's face, etc.).

Haven't played Pine Valley so don't know.  I was also thinking of "true" amateur architects, so guys like Fowners, Crump, Macdonald, Sutherland, etc. who laboured over their courses for years, don't really count.  Wright had a day job.

Anthony

CPC can't be considered because Dr. MacK was a pro.  Also saves us from having to have that nasty little debate about the quality (or relative lack thereof) of 15-18 yet again....

Bill

Haven't played Oakmont either.  Boy am I deprived!

Rich, the criterion is narrowing to your choice...

Would CB MacDonald ever be considered a 'pro'? not sure how many courses he designed but his portfolio would certainly do for most people who consider themselves professional architects today. Neither MacDonald or Tillinghast ever made a living out of being a GCA, truth be told.  

I guess Bobby Jones and Marion Hollins are worth a shout as co-designers then. Also one of the guys who did Pebble Beach.

[peter_p]

I must admit my Carnoustie pick was influenced by TCG by TD, whom listed the best finishes in golf, and !d it as the toughest.

[Wayne Freeman]

 I didn't get on this early enough, but Carnoustie was also my pick for certainly the toughest finish I've played.  Incidentally, for a U.S. venue, my vote might go to  La Purisima, in Lompoc, near Santa Barbara.  A tough and windy U.S. Open qualifying site with 3 very difficult finishing holes-  16 and 18 are long par 4's dead into the wind and 17 is a great little par 3 about 165 downhill, into the wind, and tricky to properly negotiate.

[ForkaB]

Anthony

The original question spoke of a "complete" amateur GCA.  Whether or not Macdonald or Tillinghast or Fownes or Crump ever got paid, they treated their design careers as pretty much a full time job, as far as I know.  Wright did not.

One of the most fascinating things to me about GCA is how so much of the really best stuff was done (and maybe even is still being done) by people with no other background in the craft than a knowledge of and love for the game.  It's like finding out that the Michaelangelo's David was actually carved largely by a stone mason, or the Chrysler Building designed based on sketches from some Assistant Manager for transmission design in Detroit.

As for the second part of the question, "finest" finish, I'm still hard pressed to think of any real competition for Carnoustie.  I just did a quick and dirty "match play" with Merion for the back 9's and while there were a lot of halves and close battles, Carnoustie wins 3-up.  For those who have played both courses, why might Pine Valley have a finer finish than Carnoustie?

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