US Open playoff question.....

[Mark Arata]

If for some reason they had a 5 way tie, would they play as a fivesome in the playoff?

[Forrest Richardson]

Yes.

[JohnV]

I don't know, but I don't think they would.  Certainly they wouldn't go any larger than that.  If there were 5, I think they'd go 2 and 3.  Perhaps Forrest has more information about it.

When we have playoffs for match play at the US Mid-Amateur, we don't go in groups larger than 4 and we'd only go 4 if there were exactly 4.  Even once players start getting eliminated (or into match play) we repair to get groups of 3s.

[Mark Arata]

If they did play it as a 2 and 3, how would the pairings be determined? First in the house, or would they draw for it?

[JohnV]

For our playoffs in the Mid-Am we go by first-in, first-out, but since this is a full 18 holes, I think they would go first-in, last-out as they do for all other days of a championship.

[Glenn Spencer]

I don't know, but I don't think they would.  Certainly they wouldn't go any larger than that.  If there were 5, I think they'd go 2 and 3.  Perhaps Forrest has more information about it.

When we have playoffs for match play at the US Mid-Amateur, we don't go in groups larger than 4 and we'd only go 4 if there were exactly 4.  Even once players start getting eliminated (or into match play) we repair to get groups of 3s.

Can we have one, just one solid reason why this is done? There is nobody else on the course and at the Mid-Amateur or whatever, there are no scoreboards. How is it not important for you to see what is going on with your playing competitors. This goes against the essence of the entire tournament and sports. What could the possible explanation be?

[JohnV]

In a playoff in the Mid-Am, or any other USGA event that goes to match play, the players are split into groups to make play more manageable.  

In the USGA playoffs for match play, each group goes off in turn and waits at the end of the first hole, where those who make it get ready for their match, those who get eliminated go home and the rest get re-paired to go to the second hole.  It is equally tough on everyone, as you either wait to tee off on a hole or you wait at the end for others to finish.  It can be looked at as being an advantage for either the first player who makes a low number and makes everyone try to match it or for the last player when he knows what he has to do to get in, but in the end it seems to be the best way to conduct play to me.

I saw the Pacific Northwest GA run a playoff with 15 guys teeing off and playing together.  It was a giant cluster-f**k.   Every guy had to write a big number on their ball and tell the official their number before playing each shot.  When they got to the green and 15 guys had to putt, it was impossible not to be stepping in someone elses line, even if you were just trying to mark your ball on the green or pick it out of the hole.

[Glenn Spencer]

In a playoff in the Mid-Am, or any other USGA event that goes to match play, the players are split into groups to make play more manageable.  

In the USGA playoffs for match play, each group goes off in turn and waits at the end of the first hole, where those who make it get ready for their match, those who get eliminated go home and the rest get re-paired to go to the second hole.  It is equally tough on everyone, as you either wait to tee off on a hole or you wait at the end for others to finish.  It can be looked at as being an advantage for either the first player who makes a low number and makes everyone try to match it or for the last player when he knows what he has to do to get in, but in the end it seems to be the best way to conduct play to me.

I saw the Pacific Northwest GA run a playoff with 15 guys teeing off and playing together.  It was a giant cluster-f**k.   Every guy had to write a big number on their ball and tell the official their number before playing each shot.  When they got to the green and 15 guys had to putt, it was impossible not to be stepping in someone elses line, even if you were just trying to mark your ball on the green or pick it out of the hole.

I give all the credit in the world to the PNGA, I don't care about someone stepping in my line. I want to know what I need to do. It is a playoff. I saw a guy make double at the Publinx because he didn't know that bogey would move on. Clay Ogden survived the playoff and went on to win and play in the Masters, I bet that guy doesn't like the system. Tell the official his number? Let me see if I can come up with a solution to that. Uhhh.... IDK, maybe send out more officials!!!
Equally tough on everyone? No, it is just equally an uninformed situation for everyone. This practice really needs to go, it is just a case of not keeping the players interest in mind. This is the essence of the game and it is being ignored for what I still see as no good reason. The look on the kid's face at Shaker Run when he found out was absolutely indelible, but of course the official had no idea that he was part of the cause.

[JohnV]

The guy didn't know he needed a bogey?  Didn't he ask someone what score was needed?  The scores for the players who have already played are usually posted right by the green.  We had a situation at Stanwich where we only had to eliminate one player.  A guy in the first group made double.  Everyone behind him figured it out real quick and made pars or bogies.

And how, if there are 15 guys on a hole are the players supposed to keep track of what they need?  If I'm the first or even the 10th to hole out how do I know what the ones who are still going to hole out are going to do?

Now, if I'm in the first group and I've got a putt that I might think I have to make, but the guy in the group behind me just hit it OB, I might not know it.  But, likewise, if I make birdie, I'm putting the pressure on all the others behind me.

Using your logic, the USGA should just start all 156 guys on Thursday at the US Open in the same group and continue that way the rest of the week.

[Glenn Spencer]

No, he did not know. They assembled an to my horror went off, no scoreboards or anything of the sort. I would think you would know that a guy hit in the water if he was in your group, thus you play accordingly. If this is the right way of doing it, then tell me this... what is the cut-off? 4? Why? 5? Why? Why not just play 2 and 2 then. It is just a poor excuse to make it easier on the officials. The players are not thought of properly and that is criminal. Do you think Montgomerie would have charged that putt, if he knew that Mickelson was off the green in 4 and Ogilvy was in at 5? In a tournament, you are not deserving of that right, in a playoff you are. That is why they call it a playoff.

[Jim Sweeney]

Many associations will go 5 in a single grouping but will split up six three and three.

Glenn, I understand your rational and don't disagree with wanting to know what your fellow competitors are doing, but large playoffs do get to be buffalo hunts, and the pace can be brutally slow. When you have played for two days in a three ball, you are used to that rythmn.

For better or worse, like many things in this game, you have to draw a line somewhere, and so generally speaking associations follow what JVB and I have related. Some may do it differently, but when the tournament administrators get together to discuss best practices, they come up with these formulas that seem to work best for everybody.

[Glenn Spencer]

Many associations will go 5 in a single grouping but will split up six three and three.

Glenn, I understand your rational and don't disagree with wanting to know what your fellow competitors are doing, but large playoffs do get to be buffalo hunts, and the pace can be brutally slow. When you have played for two days in a three ball, you are used to that rythmn.

For better or worse, like many things in this game, you have to draw a line somewhere, and so generally speaking associations follow what JVB and I have related. Some may do it differently, but when the tournament administrators get together to discuss best practices, they come up with these formulas that seem to work best for everybody.

Jim,

Great call, rhythm is something that I will buy. That is a reasonable explanation. In my mind, it should never in a players mind override knowing what score he needs. One caveat to rhythm though, some guys have been waiting all day for that playoff and they are not much concerned about rhythm.

[Glenn Spencer]

For our playoffs in the Mid-Am we go by first-in, first-out, but since this is a full 18 holes, I think they would go first-in, last-out as they do for all other days of a championship.

The regulation tournament is over, chances are they would draw out of a hat.

[ForkaB]

I once was in a 9-man sudden death playoff for 3 places and we all teed off together.  It was unimaginably cool.

[Bryan Izatt]

There was a nine man playoff for one spot at a Monday qualifier for  a Nationwide Tour event at my club.  They went out as a ninesome.  Four dropped with bogey on the first.  One guy won the spot with a birdie on the second.

[JohnV]

In most cases, every player in the playoff knows what he needs long before he tees off.  If it is a big group for 1 spot, it is birdie.  If it is a big group for lots of spots, it is a par.  Make those and you usually don't have to worry much.

At Dallas AC, we had a 17 for 1 playoff.  It started on a par 5 and everyone knew they needed birdie (or better) before it started.  There were 3 birdies and it went on as a 3 for 1.

At Stanwich it was something like 11-9.  After the first hole where there was one birdie and 1 bogey, it went on as 9 for 8.  Anyone with half a brain knew par would probably get you in and bogey would keep you going.  As it was, one guy made a stupid double in the first group and everyone else knew to make par.

Glenn,
I'm suprised there wasn't a scoreboard at the playoff.  In every one I've seen there has been, but that might be because Mark Passey, the ultimate scoreboard man, is always at the Mid-Am.  Even so, the officials have radios and a player can ask them what the other players in front of him made.

Every organization does things differently.  We do things the same way the USGA does because my boss and I don't like buffalo hunts, a term my boss loves and since Jim and he are friends, I wasn't surprised to see him us it.

[Glenn Spencer]

John,

What are you trying to say? Just because the playoffs that you are speaking about worked out numbers wise, it is OK? You are giving examples that just aren't going to happen a lot. Let's say you are playing a 460 yard-par four with a lot of trouble going on by the green that you can't see from the tee. The playoff is 13 for 7 spots, you think par is a lock, right? Well, it isn't if 3 of the first 4 make birdie. It is never a lock, unless you know what is going on. It is a PLAYOFF, every person should have the same opportunity. When you send guys out in different groups you are changing the dynamics of the playoff. In a 13 for 7, player 5 gets to see player one hit in it the water of the tee, player one gets to see nothing. This is changing the dynamic of the playoff, when you get into a playoff, you are equal with the other person and no advantage or disadvantage should be give. Whether they are advantages or not, depends on the individual, but they are changes and that is what is criminal. If you play 7 in the same group, how can someone take exception to that? Playing them in different groups brings different elements into play and seeing it first hand was an awful, awful sight.

[Glenn Spencer]

I once was in a 9-man sudden death playoff for 3 places and we all teed off together.  It was unimaginably cool.

I bet it was, this is how it is supposed to be done. I can just see a 10 for 1 now, the first two groups of 4 figure they have to have a birdie to advance right? They all go and take a risk and a run at birdie and the first 8 make double and the 9th and 10th guys say to the official. 'Hey, what did they make'and he says, 'they all made double.' The 9th and 10th guys says 'perfect,' now I have a real shot at this with a par. It is a 2 for 1 for these guys, but an 10 for1 for these others, the dynamics of the playoff have been changed and it has been done by an official, a cardinal, cardinal mistake in my opinion.

[JohnV]

Glenn,  I'll make you a deal.  I won't play in any qualifiers that you run and you don't have to play in any that I run.  That way we'll never have a problem with this.  We differ on our opinions of it and neither of us is going to change.  The fact that some organizations do it one way and others the other says that there is no right or wrong on this, just opinions.

[JohnV]

I just got to work and got out the manual the USGA sends out to all officials working qualifiers.  They say:

Groups in a playoff should have no more than 5 players.  The order of play is the order of finish as posted on the score board.

That is their rule for their event so I will respect it for all their events and will also do it for our events as it makes more sense to me.

[George Pazin]

Damned if you do....

Can you imagine the outrage that some players would have playing in a 9-some? Grinding out every shot? And what if someone needs a ruling?

5 or possibly even 6 I can see, but no higher, unless it's a casual fun thing.

[Glenn Spencer]

Glenn,  I'll make you a deal.  I won't play in any qualifiers that you run and you don't have to play in any that I run.  That way we'll never have a problem with this.  We differ on our opinions of it and neither of us is going to change.  The fact that some organizations do it one way and others the other says that there is no right or wrong on this, just opinions.

I have given you a reason that splitting them up is incorrect, can you give me one that is incorrect about sending them off as a group? Slow play is a circumstance that comes from being in a playoff, a player understands that, the same is true about stepping in someone's line, comes with the territory. I gave you a reason that clearly makes sending them out in groups inequitable. What is inequitable about all in the same group? If one has inequalities and one doesn't, how are they both correct?

[JohnV]

There is confusion, there is the greater possibility of someone playing a wrong ball, there are problems with players getting in each others way on the greens, bunkers and other areas.  There is the pace of play issue with having a large group of players all working around each other.  There is a great chance of balls hitting other balls at rest and rebounding into much worse positions.  In general, there are all kinds of rules scenarios that multiply exponentially as you add more players to a group.

Lets say you are the 16th guy to hit to the green and there are 10 balls on the green.  Are you going to make all the others go up and mark them so that you can hit and be sure that your ball won't hit another one and bounce into a water hazard?

There is still no guarantee that any one player might make a decision that is incorrect because someone else can always screw up after he made his decision.  And does each player have to keep track of the other 14 guys scores in his head so that he can know how he stands?

During the PNGA playoff I mentioned earlier, we witnessed at least 3 players violate the rule for standing astride the extension of their line of putt in order to tap in a putt (they weren't called on it).  Fortunately the new decision that was discussed here the other day would mean they weren't in violation, but this was 8 years ago so techinically they were.

[Glenn Spencer]

Those are simple things to fix. Have an official mark and remark all of the balls, that is simple. Everyone has to deal with pace of play-fair. Stepping in each other's line is just a necessary evil of keeping the playoff's integrity, all players understand that. These are nothing things compared to not knowing what is necessary to advance. Of course you can't know what happens after you, but if the integrity of the playoff is correct, you should be afforded all the information as to what has happened in front of you. How is it that difficult to just have an official mark the balls as they come to rest on the green? Stepping in someone's line is minor when it comes to the possible future of someone's golfing career. The difference is, what I saw happen to this kid, was horrific and it happened because they were in different groups. He would have played totally differently if they were in the same group. His future was affected by the fact that the USGA has not taken the proper steps to make the playoff as equitable as possible. I don't understand it.

[Glenn Spencer]

How is it not easy to manage if you send out an official for each four players and have one mark all the balls on the green as they come in? You wouldn't have any of the problems that you have discussed except for stepping in each others lines. This is a nothing thing with spikeless shoes.