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Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
What the public wants?
« on: June 13, 2006, 04:26:50 PM »
I just heard a radio advertisement for a new (year old) course here in the Twin Cities called "The Meadows at Mystic Lake."

Bad signs: an article AND a preposition in the name of the course -- though, of course, I really like Jeff Brauer's The Wilderness at Fortune Bay, so I guess syntactic GCA analysis is, like GCA itself, an imperfect science. (Mystic Lake, by the way -- like Fortune Bay -- is a casino.)

I wasn't quick enough to jot down all of the course's touted features as the announcer zipped through them -- but it struck me that I'd never heard such an outstanding collection, in such a short time frame, of claims that I, and many of the rest of you, consider worthless, at best.

So I went to the course's Web site (http://www.ccsmdc.org/meadows/index.html) -- where I found most of them, in short order:

"The Meadows at Mystic Lake is an experience unlike any other. This scenic championship golf course designed by Garrett Gill and Paul Miller offers pristine views of beautiful wetlands, mature trees and rolling hills. The 7,144 yard course offers five sets of tees to properly challenge all levels of play.

"At the Meadows you will find bent grass fairways surrounded by mounded wild flowers and fescue to separate the holes along with striking water features including a 2500 foot winding creek, several cascading waterfalls and shimmering ponds with fountains.

"Guests of our course will appreciate our golf carts that includes an advanced GPS (global positioning system). The GPS system offers each cart exact yardage to pin, all hazards on the course and offers tips on how to play each hole providing the ultimate golfing experience."

Somehow, the home page of the Web site fails to tout the "continuous concrete cart path" and the well-stocked pro shop and the restaurant overlooking the "signature 18th hole."

"Pricing Information
"Standard Rate: $85.00
"Twilight Rate: $50.00
"Rates include tax and cart"

Sigh.


« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 04:38:54 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the public wants?
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2006, 04:34:57 PM »
Seems like a lot of money to pay to be eaten by mosquito's.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the public wants?
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2006, 04:37:11 PM »
My day is not complete if my pond isn't shimmering!

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the public wants?
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2006, 04:50:28 PM »
apparently in many cases it's too much to ask for a beautiful setting AND a well-designed golf course
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Gib_Papazian

Re:What the public wants?
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2006, 05:10:55 PM »
Dan,

Hyperbole like that was invented by all the "golf writer" pukes who would describe Rosanne Barr as a sex goddess for lunch, booze and a free round (with a cart, of course).

The Casino thing is here to stay, but I am not entirely opposed to it. *Something* drives all development . . . . houses, high fees or in this case, Gambling.

Under normal circumstances - not in a public course starved area like NYC or the Bay Are - it is extremely difficult to make a go of a stand-alone golf course.

In truth, some of the best courses built in recent years have been from funded by Indian Casinos. Guys like Eckenrode (Barona) and Doak (Apache) get the opportunity to do some wonderful things.

Those Indians are not going to pay Fazio or Jack the big jing to urinate a generic cookie-cutter yawner on their land - and golf architecture in America may be better served because of it.

Here is one from the archives:

PLEASE FORWARD THIS TO ANG SPORTS. THIS IS A GOLF COLUMN FOR THE SAN MATEO TIMES.
by Gib Papazian

     A reader returning from Las Vegas was lamenting the obscene green fees and surly attitudes of the golf courses in that area.

"I like to play golf and gamble a little bit to relax," he said, "but the cost of even a weekend away is way more than I can afford."

     He brings up a salient point - Las Vegas golf courses have become almost a caricature of the resort course mentality. Places like the new Bali Hai course are little more than a theme park with eighteen holes of cheesy Polynesian props and imported Palm trees. Fun for a round or two, but $250 green fees?
     Steve Wynn bankrolled Shadow Creek, where Tom Fazio created a completely manufactured pine forest environment. It debuted at number eight on the Golf Digest list, but has steadily dropped as the novelty of its artificiality wore off.
     Reno has some good offerings, but its shortcomings lie in an unpredictable high desert climate. There is really nothing wrong with the Reno area, but there is an alternative with some of the best golf to be found in America.
    Indian gaming casinos are a source of political and social contention, raising all kinds of sensitive issues on the sovereignty of reservations, exemption from taxation and land use rights.
     Regardless of how you feel about the issue, there is no denying that some of the best new courses being constructed in America are attached to these gaming casinos. Like Las Vegas and Reno, gambling is at the heart of the issue - and the economic engine driving the course construction.
     The difference is that these destinations are far more affordable. Plus, they present golf courses built with a minimalist philosophy far more in line with the Golden Age architects. Rather than simply hire one of the big name designers to come in and force a cookie-cutter course on the landscape, the Indians have a far more respectful approach to the natural rolls and folds on the land of their ancestors.
     The byproduct of this adherence to a minimalist doctrine are some ingenious routings with one-of-a-kind holes. The Tribes as a group have not been afraid to take a chance on young visionaries looking to break free from the shackles of rote repetition.
     Your faithful scribe serves on a course evaluation panel for a national magazine and has made a study this year of these so-called "Indian Gaming Courses." The combination of their natural environmental sensitivity, negligible land costs and sophisticated agronomy adds up to cheaper and better golf than found in the major resort areas - plus the attraction of gaming.
     In truth, at first I half expected a sooped-up bingo parlor surrounded by teepee's full of squaws selling carved beads. What I found were sprawling casinos and perfectly conditioned courses run like a finely oiled machine. In today's environment, Pocahontas and Running Bear have MBA's from Stanford.
     From a pure golf standpoint, with thousands of courses in America that have been constructed since 1960, two Reservation courses have already cracked the GolfWeek Top 100 Modern List with more coming. Another - ironically only 30 miles from the Las Vegas Strip - is in such pristine condition that its director of maintenance was recognized this year as Superintendent of the Year. The green fees there are one third of the average cost in the area. Plus, Pete Dye designed it with another under construction.
So where are these hidden gems located? Here are four I recommend as ideal destinations for a getaway. Three are in the desert areas, but because it is off-season the prices are even more attractive.

BARONA CREEK: 30 miles Northeast of San Diego next to the town of Lakeside is a golf course I would swear was built to the plans of Alister Mackenzie himself. Less than a year old, the course is credited to Gary Roger Baird, but was actually built by his brilliant former associate Todd Eckenrode. Barona Creek wanders in the rolling meadows and fingers of a rocky canyon that sweeps away from the main casino and soon-to-be-completed hotel. There was not a single shot for 18 holes that did not require a strategic decision - all arranged around visually striking bunkers and greens that blend together like high art. To contact call: 619-387-7018.

Apache Stronghold: Located in the town of Globe, 80 miles from Phoenix on the Apache Indian Reservation, Tom Doak spent a full year working out the details of this minimalist masterpiece. Rated number 43 on the GolfWeek Modern List, Apache is an essay in letting the land dictate the routing. There are several ways to play every hole, which twists and turns through the jagged topography. It is the little touches that separate the good from the great and this course is boredom proof. Plus, $39 for a room including buffet dinner and cocktails was like stealing. The property is 3500 feet above sea level, so it will be 15 degrees cooler until the August doldrums. To contact: 520-812-1872.

Talking Stick: Phoenix golf prices are plummeting after a seemingly endless rise for several years - and these courses have followed suit. Ben Crenshaw and Bill Coore designed this pair of superb courses less than 20 minutes from the airport. The North Course has been recognized as number 63 on the GolfWeek Modern List. The land itself is nearly flat, but this gave C&C the opportunity to experiment with unusual strategic geometries, blended with yawning bunkers at once visually striking yet not nearly as fearsome as at first glance. The North plays like a true linksland layout, the South is more traditional. To contact: 480-860-2221.

Paiute Golf Resort: Drive 30 minutes from the Las Vegas Strip and the scenery quickly transforms to the stark and pristine landscape of the Paiute Indian Reservation. Parlaying enormous profits from a tax free tobacco concession, the tribe hired Pete Dye to build 27 holes as the showpiece to a full scale resort hotel. A fourth nine, completing the second 18, is nearly open with a third course already drawn up. This is a more user friendly Peter Dye course that will not beat up the average player. To contact: 800-711-2833.


Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the public wants?
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2006, 05:11:00 PM »
Dan,

I think Mystic pulled its script off the website called GolfCoursePromotion.com, where one can find the following:

"The [INSERT NAME OF COURSE HERE] is an experience unlike any other. This scenic championship golf course designed by [INSERT COURSE DESIGNER NAME HERE--BE SURE TO SAY "AWARD-WINNING" IF POSSIBLE] offers pristine views of beautiful wetlands, mature trees and rolling hills. The [INSERT COURSE YARDAGE--MUST BE AT LEAST 7,000] course offers [INSERT NUMBER OF TEES--MUST BE AT LEAST FOUR] sets of tees to properly challenge all levels of play.

"At the [INSERT NAME OF COURSE HERE] you will find [DESCRIBE TYPE OF GRASS, PREFERABLY BENT] grass fairways surrounded by mounded wild flowers and fescue to separate the holes along with striking water features including [DESCRIBE FEATURES, INCLUDING WATERFALLS].

"Guests of our course will appreciate our [DESCRIBE OTHER SPECIAL FEATURES AND AMENITIES, INCLUDING GPS, "SIGNATURE HOLE," GOLF SHOP/RESTAURANT AND ATTENTIVE STAFF AND SERVICE ]"

Twitter: @Deneuchre

Mark Bourgeois

Re:What the public wants?
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2006, 05:37:54 PM »
mounded wild flowers

I already dead head 'em, should I be "mounding" them, too?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the public wants?
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2006, 07:00:21 PM »
Well fellows, how would a cynic promote such a golf course, or just an old crumudgeon who is skeptical of such hyperbole?

Hey gamblers and loosers... need a break from a cold streak at our tables?  Try our cheap golf course we laid out in back of the casino in the woods.  There are some regular and a few hard tees, round greens and sand in most of our oval bunkers.  We have a few ditches with water running in them when it rains and dug out ponds with some algae and lilly pad weeds.  Our carp are always jumping.  You can see some frogs and turtles, and none of the snakes are poisonous.  Golf on the reservation, in the traditional old ways of our ancient Chieftans.

This average length course was laid out by our talented tribal gardener, Little Burrowing Badger and his braves, and it won the local area tech school's best new lawnscape award.  Our grass is cut more than once a week, and our greens are nice and flat.  OUr course will not punish you like so many other resort courses that cost you big money.  We have smoking and non-smoking rooms for $35 a night and the golf is complimentary to those buying $200 in chips or $500 in tobacco products.

Guests of our casino and course will appreciate the fast carts and the cinder cart paths, all leading back to the gaming center after every three holes, for those golfers that can't wait to finish their round to get back in the action.  Our rental clubs are not older than 10 years and for $5 extra we'll through in some free found balls from our ditches and ponds.  Enjoy our bologna sandwiches and authentic native American fry bread with sugar crusting served by our talented waitstaff maidens.  Make your next tee time reservation on our reservation where the golf is always a stone's through from craps and slots.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2008, 12:29:17 PM »
My cousin Charlie called at noon yesterday, feeling unproductive on a beautiful day, and asked if I'd like to check out The Meadows at Mystic Lake, at a promotional rate ($55).

I, having felt productive all morning, was ready to go.

So we went.

Obviously, I am in no position to say whether the traffic on the course yesterday (minimal) is typical -- but if it is, I'd conclude, happily, that this is NOT what the public wants.

I sure don't.

The course has all the charm suggested by its advertising.

One note of interest: The GPS system on the cart told us, on numerous occasions, the distance to clear the continuous concrete cart path -- which came into play frequently (and occasionally assisted the ball in its quest to bound out of play).

I'd rather play the slots -- which I'll never play.

P.S. My receipt is worth a $20 discount the "next time" I play the course. IM me if interested. It's free for the asking!

Just Googled the course, and learned that Golf Digest named it the 10th-best new Public Course over $75 the year it opened. Astonishing.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2008, 12:32:48 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2008, 12:39:33 PM »
Dan, and for two years I've been wondering if this really was what the public wanted.  Thanks for the update!

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What the public wants?
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2008, 01:33:30 PM »
Seems like a lot of money to pay to be eaten by mosquito's.

LOL!
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jeff Shelman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2008, 03:35:36 PM »
It was that bad, Dan?

I haven't seen the course and only know a few people who have actually played there.

Are there any good holes?

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2008, 04:20:35 PM »
Are there any good holes?

Sure. But they can't make up for the bad ones, for me.

I enjoyed the par-3s, and there was a short uphill par-4 that I liked (No. 8, I think).

Go see for yourself. I'll give you the receipt next time I see you.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Carl Rogers

Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2008, 04:49:37 PM »
This public, being me, myself and I want a screeching halt to slow play with all draconian options in play.

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2008, 05:07:29 PM »
This public, being me, myself and I want a screeching halt to slow play with all draconian options in play.

How about this as a marketing hook:  "We are a 4 hour golf course, and we enforce it." Does the public want that?
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2008, 05:34:44 PM »
I mentioned this in another thread, but I found it interesting how the Presidio GC in San Francisco was seemingly managing slow play, which I'd agree is definitely what the public DOESN'T want.  There was only one teeing option (basically the white markers) and they made the bunkers very shallow which made it easy to get out in one stroke.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2008, 05:54:56 PM »
This public, being me, myself and I want a screeching halt to slow play with all draconian options in play.

How about this as a marketing hook:  "We are a 4 hour golf course, and we enforce it." Does the public want that?

In theory, yes.

In practice, I doubt it.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2008, 09:26:01 PM »
Here is something that really scares me....

I haven't the slightest recollection of ever writing that post with my name on it above, not longer than 2 years ago!  :o :o ::)  Not one word of it seems familiar.  I wonder if TEPaul has this trouble not recognising a single word of a post from a few years ago.   ::)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2008, 11:23:26 PM »
Here is something that really scares me....

I haven't the slightest recollection of ever writing that post with my name on it above, not longer than 2 years ago!  :o :o ::)  Not one word of it seems familiar.

Yes, and the cocktail hour had barely begun!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2008, 12:21:53 AM »
"I wonder if TEPaul has this trouble not recognising a single word of a post from a few years ago."


Certainly not! I remember every single word in all 32,000 posts. I am the Bobby Fischer of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com!

Let me amend that. Bobby Fischer did not just remember every move he ever made in chess, he remembered every move everyone made against him and every move every great chess player ever made too.   

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2008, 01:36:59 AM »
While Bobby Fischer may have been great at chess, I bet he sucked at golf.  And he always lost at marbles.  Let me amend that.  He lost all of his marbles.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2008, 07:43:46 AM »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2008, 10:49:14 AM »
New website. Take a look:

www.mysticlakegolf.com/hol01_dsc.html


Take a virtual tour:

www.mysticlakegolf.com/hol01_dsc.html

They've added "incredible life-like statues on seven holes." Wow.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2008, 11:54:47 AM »
I take it this is one of the "lifelike structures"...  ::) ;D

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What the public wants?
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2008, 11:57:46 AM »
I take it this is one of the "lifelike structures"...  ::) ;D



No, Dick, that's an actual bear and an actual fish.

Not to mention an actual waterfall.

Minnesota is a strange place....
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

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