[Kevin Pallier]

1-3 - mediocre
4-11 - very interesting.
12-14 - I don't remember well.
15 - very good par three
16 - one of my favorite short par fours.
17 - real enjoyable par five
18 - average at best

I don't think it is overrated.

Jason - that's what I was alluding too....

1-3 = average....just for mine to get you to the ocean
4-11 = his some highs but do they views cloud the quality of some of the holes ? (ala Old Head ?) Troon nearby is much stronger through these stretch of holes
12-14 = average
15-17 = good stretch of holes
18 = average finish

Troon and Western Gailes for mine are better tests of golf in the area (others here seem to rate WG as well) and Prestwick is such great fun.

KP

PS: Mark B - understand your point re: expectattons

[Ian Andrew]

Kevin,

I think it's undoubtably a top 100 and possibly a top 50, but that's it for me. There is a great stretch of holes from 4 through 10, but after that there are only a couple of holes that jump to mind as exceptional.

I may be guilty of thinking that the routing could have been better, I have always felt this way, and that possibly clouds my judgement. The setting is one of the best in golf so the course almost couldn't miss, but the architecture left me flat at times particularly on the back nine. There are too many average holes after 10 for the course to be among the elite.

I look at it and wonder what could have been - I never thought that at most of the other great courses.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Kevin and Ian,

With respect, I disagree!  Surely part of the mark of a course's greatness is its champions and those include Watson (Open and Senior Open), Norman, Price, and Michael Bonallack.

Additionally, these championships included great drama.

As to the course, I agree with some of the comments but why do you find 12 through 14 lacking / forgettable?  I found the drive on 12 testing.  And I thought highly of 13: the drive as close to the bunkers right to better position the second shot.  The call there for a controlled iron shot -- I enjoyed that second shot, but found it memorable for when I missed it long (reminded me of Pinehurst #2 green complexes).

As to 18, I agree but would liked to have played it from the championship tee left and back of 17 green.  Would that tee shot change your opinion of the hole?

Ian -- you've peaked my curiosity re: routing.  Can you elaborate?  What elements of the terrain did Ross misuse?  What would you do differently if given carte blanche? Your answer here would go far in my education on routing best practices!

Kind regards,
Mark

[Ian Andrew]

I'll try, but without the topo to go through, I will never know how things could go together (or won't). The other point is I haven't been there since 1989.

Here is some thoughts

1.The ocean is left behind at the 10th hole. Why not go out to the ocean, head inland and return to it later in the routing?

2. Every hole on the ocean plays in the same direction. The strength of Pebble Beach and Pacific Dunes are the views down both coasts and the wind in opposite directions

3. Not one hole plays directly out toward the ocean or Alisa Crag. This is a little thing, but with all that table land at least one hole should have borrowed the ocean backdrop to make you feel closer to the sea. Ross ran all the holes parallel instead.

4. I'm not convinced that the ocean holes get as much out of the location as it could have. Too many of the holes are set back and in, and while I love holes like #8, I'm always left wondering what could have been. Particularly how the point with 8 green and 9 tee could have been used differently. Look left of 9 tee and you see an awesome par three with the lighthouse in the background as an example.

I go to Merion and I know I can't do any better, I went to Turnberry and I left wondering if there was a better routing left out on the ground. I certainly could be wrong.

[Ian Andrew]

Sean,

It also happens to be my favorite too. It was more an observation about the possibilities of the point than that hole in particular.

The comment about the landing strip does make you wonder how much of the dune complex was lost. I think I remember Tom Doak posting about the dunes being some of the least inspiring, or something to that extent.

[Willie_Dow]

Ian - First off it's great that you are on here as often as you are.  Your judgement calls are accurate, by my standards.

A few years have passed since my visit to Ayrshire when we stayed at Culzean.  But my first glimpse of Ailsa Craig brought that moment alive, and I hoped to see more of that view at Turnberry.  Unfortunately the weather turned when we played the Ailsa course, and the Craig was not seen again.

But I agree with your routing observation, wondering why the first hole, the Ailsa Craig, shouldn't have started with a series of parallel, side by side holes to follow.  Maybe taking the reverse of the 18th, which would have started out toward the sea, and more angular routes would follow, as you have suggested.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ian,

Thanks for the response.  Perhaps the course needed to begin and end closest to the hotel, although obviously that does not explain everything.

Regarding the dune complexes, I have read that only the land immediately along the sea was untouched by the RAF; the remainder was bulldozed and covered in as much as four feet of concrete. In other words, the RAF completely flattened it.

Like Shadow Creek later, the course was built out of featureless land.  Because none existed below the old runways, some 30,000 cubic feet of topsoil was dug out, by hand, from neighboring property; subsequently, sod was laid on this topsoil.

Interestingly, to communicate the movement he sought in the holes, Ross built plasticine models for the shapers, who apparently were experienced operators of earthmoving equipment, thanks to the war, but not familiar with golf course construction.

After a visit, Henry Longhurst wrote, "The tractor drivers were invariably intelligent men....As a result, and I should not have believed it if I had not seen it with my own eyes, it is quite impossible to tell which holes on the new Ailsa course were once part of the airfield."

On provenance alone, then, this course might well qualify as "great": convincing the British government, its finances in ruin, to finance the rebuilding of Ailsa -- surely this is one of golf's greatest miracles!

But it seemed to me that much careful thought went into the design of the individual holes ("strategic").  Many of the holes listed above as lacking present specific tests -- perhaps they are not dramatic or memorable, but still they asked specific questions of my game.  I consider the course one of the more "thought-inducing" I ever have played.

(Perhaps my standards are too low. I'm still trying to figure out why I apparently am the sole person on this board who finds the 13th worthy of study -- what the hell is wrong with me!?)

Given this thoughtfulness of design, from the effort spent convincing the government to the actual construction to the individual holes, perhaps we're missing the complete story on the routing.

Cheers,
Mark

[Ian Andrew]

Mark,

I really enjoyed your post. I had forgotten the state of the recovery to return the course. Your right it is amazing that the government was capable o such a project after the war. I would assume a prior promise played a role.

Was the famous run of holes is in fact the original course?

Did Mackezie Ross recreate the remainder or build it from scratch?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ian,

Great question. I wish I knew!

I originally assumed all the holes were lost, but I would think if the land closest the shore retained the dunes, possibly the land retained at least some "memory" of holes nearby.

In which case, wouldn't the design credit be shared?  Yet I think Ross gets sole credit, indicating that perhaps those holes were lost.  Additionally, I have read of the "entire" course being sodded, which would indicate as well 18 entirely new holes.

It would be fascinating to know the routing history of the course -- I emailed Donald Steel to see if he knows. Here's what I have read:

Willie Fernie of Troon laid out a 13-hole course in 1901.  Later he added another 13-hole course.  In 1926, Cecil Hutchinson extended the newer course to 18 holes and eliminated many of the blind shots.  The new course was called Ailsa.  He also modernized the older course (Arran). He completed his work in 1938.

Ian, you may be interested to compare your comments on Ailsa to Donald Steel's "revision" of Arran into the Kintyre Course.  The eighth hole plays out to the sea, and the ninth plays toward Ailsa Craig *and* the lighthouse!  Here is a link: http://www.turnberry.co.uk/golf/kintyre.html

Cheers,
Mark

[Darren_Kilfara]

Surely part of the mark of a course's greatness is its champions and those include Watson (Open and Senior Open), Norman, Price, and Michael Bonallack.

Mark - can you elaborate upon this? I've never understood this line of thinking...the player who wins a particular tournament is almost always the one who plays the best that particular week. Some courses may set up better for a particular type of player - e.g. a course with lots of doglegs to the left will favor someone who draws the ball, or a course with wide fairways will favor the long, wayward hitter over the short, straight hitter - but is there something inherent in great architecture which really inspires better players to play their best? I don't see that myself...

Cheers,
Darren

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean,

Yes, the Kintyre course includes holes from the old Arran course, but we were wondering about the pre vs. post WWII Ailsa course(s) -- do you have any info?

I mentioned earlier I had put the question to Donald Steel.  His response in part reads:

"I always thought that Mackenzie Ross had virtually started from scratch but a black and white aerial photo reveals that much of Hutchison's routing remained intact particularly the coastal holes although the short 4th and 5th were down to Mackenzie Ross...I meant to say the photo shows all the runways and the course that remains pretty well."

Now we're getting somewhere!

Darren -- let me take a stab at the "great courses produce great champions argument."

No, I did not mean to state this unequivocably -- Darren, your points are valid.  I most certainly did not mean to imply that great architecture "inspires" great golfers to play better than other golfers.

What I was getting at was what statisticians call "specification error": we don't know all the variables that make a course "great."  If we hold a course to be less than "great," but it continually produces "great" champions, then perhaps there are a few variables we've missed.

Perhaps there is something more to the course than we see.  Perhaps our assessment is incomplete.

Now, it may have nothing to do with the architecture; for example, if someone considered Kapalua as less than "great" they wouldn't have to reassess their views just because the tournament played over the course more likely than other venues to produce worthy champions. (Limited-field event. Similar argument for the Masters.)

Or it could have something to do with architecture, but already specified: a fader winning on a course with 14 dogleg-right holes. (Or Nicklaus at The Masters.)

What could these elements be?  I'm not qualified to say, but here goes anyway!  Many hold that "variety" is a condition of architectural greatness, but in variety lay complexity: many parts. Perhaps there's a magic combination inside all this variety, a "Da MacKenzie Code," that somehow only great golfers can unlock.  Something like: fade tee shot 15 yards right, carry minimum 275; followed by high draw, angle 2 degrees; etc. etc.

I dunno, I'm just speculatin'.

So, all I'm saying in the case of Ailsa is, isn't it possible that we're missing something in our assessments if the tournaments played over the course throw up really worthy champions?  That perhaps we should keep an open mind and accept we don't have all the answers?  Couldn't it be that the architecture tests the field in a manner we don't see?

Ideally, someone with far too much time on their hands might be able to test this hypothesis: for the non-Masters majors, with all other variables accounted for, are "great" golfers more likely to win on certain courses than on others?

If the answer is yes, then we must either reassess our opinion that those golfers are "great," or that the course in question is not "great."

But surely the number of data points on Ailsa alone is insufficient -- so we're reduced to opinions here...

Regards,
Mark

[Ian Andrew]

Gentlemen,

This is becoming more interesting as it goes.

Does Donald have an aerial that shows the original course?
This would open up a far more interesting dicussion on what was there and what may have been lost.

For what it's worth - Merion is not great due to Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan, it is great because it has great holes.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ian, he referred me to an aerial picture in the club history book, which he no longer has. (Figures that a course-cum-airfield-cum course would have some of those.)

BTW, I did ask Donald if he thought some credit should go to Hutchinson / Fernie. His response: "It is a question of apportioning the credit which, in spite of the photo, is not easy."

So maybe there's less than meets the eye.

I have ordered the book...will see if I can get it scanned and posted when it arrives.  Unless someone out there already has a copy of "The Bonny Links of Turnberry," stay tuned...

Agree re: Merion.  Not saying a course is great b/c of its champions, just that if a course is considered not great but produces great champions, maybe there's something about the architecture that's gone unnoticed...of course, it would help my theory if I could actually come up with a few examples beyond Ailsa.  Alas, that will require some thought...

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

They must have been less than notable. The two courses originally were only 13 holes each and dated to around 1906 and suffered significant interruptions in play.

They were pressed into service as an airfield in WWI. Then Hutchinson began substantial revisions in 1926, concluding only in 1938.  Seemed like a perpetual work in progress...but it might have been only with the Hutchinson version that the Ailsa course rose to significance.  And then WWII came the very next year.

As to the quality of the short-lived Hutchinson course, no idea.  But during WWII Henry Longhurst wrote, "In those long periods inseparable from wartime service when there is nothing to do but sit and think, I used to find myself sitting and thinking of the time when we once again might be playing golf at Turnberry."

Apparently, then, it didn't suck. But possibly he just liked the hotel, the view, and the Sunshine Coast.

[ForkaB]

There are some great old pictures of the Old Turnberry in their clubhouse.  I think it held a British Amateur in the 30's, but I could be wrong.  In any case, would love to hear what you find out from the book, Mark.

[Bob Jenkins]

Kevin,

Another good course not that far from Turnberry is Kilmarnock-Barassie, which, as I recall, is adjacent to Western Gailes. The former, like many Scottish courses, does not look like much from the clubhouse but it has many excellent holes. Western Gailes is probably the better of the two, however. Prestwick also is not to be missed. The older portion of the course is compressed into a very small area and it is so unique.
As for the Ailsa course, I would say it was a favourite when we were in Scotland and we played all of the British Open courses over there plus some others. The 5th, 6th, 9th and 10th were particularly memorable. If you are going over there, it is a must and I agree with the other comments on the hotel. Fabulous place. Sip single malt while shooting pool downstairs.

Bob Jenkins

[Mark Bourgeois]

I have received the history of the Turnberry Golf Club, which contains several interesting facts regarding Ian’s routing comments.

First things first. Rich, the club hosted five Scottish Ladies’ Amateur Championships between the wars: in 1924, 1930, 1933, 1936 and 1939.  Interestingly, the 1930, 1933 and 1936 events were played on the (NLE) Arran course, which, prior to Hutchinson’s work on the Ailsa, was regarded as the superior of the two, with greens described as having “big sweeping wavy ‘rolls’ to make putting skillful and interesting.”

Additionally, between the wars the club hosted the Ladies’ British Open Amateur Championship in 1921 and 1937.  The 1921 event was played on the pre-Hutchinson Ailsa, the ’37 on the Arran.

In all, Turnberry has staged seven Ladies’ British Open Amateur Championships.

Ailsa does not have a distinguished pre-WWII tournament history, then.  But then it really only came into its own right before WWII.  Apparently, in his book Golf between the Wars, Bernard Darwin, wrote that Hutchinson's work left the course "as pretty and charming as he found it, but in a different class as a test of golf."  Perhaps that was the standard to which Ross applied himself as well.

As to the routing questions, the book contains an aerial-view line drawing of the course layout as completed in 1938 and as redesigned in 1949 by MacKenzie Ross.  The latter offers an overlay of the runways, to show the impact of the development of an airfield. Additionally, several aerial pictures of the runways and coast, taken during WWII, show at least some of the holes were at least closely mown, if not carefully maintained.  I wonder if this was at the behest of any officers?

I have not asked permission of the club to post any drawings or pictures from the book, but if there’s interest I can.

Most interesting: the post-war routing appears very, very similar to the pre-war.  I had assumed the runways / airfield were laid over the course, but pictures and drawings indicate the runways themselves touched very little of the holes.

The first three holes of each appear to cover the same ground, as do 7-12 and 16-18.

Given that any resurrection amounted to a financial miracle, perhaps it’s understandable that Ross would try to make the most of what was already extant.  Thus, Ian’s comments about routing certainly have merit; however, financial considerations may have limited Ross’s ability to build holes anywhere he chose.  Perhaps he was constrained; on the other hand, if you’re going to tear up all that concrete and put in wall-to-wall sod, perhaps a different (expanded?) footprint wouldn’t have cost all that much more…

At any rate, Donald Steel gives full credit to Ross, for he relocated tees and greens and added bunkers.  Additionally, he transformed the par 3s, relocating greens and building entirely new ones.  In other words, it may be Hutchinson’s footprint in the broadest sense, but it is Ross’s course.  As Steel wrote, “Mackenzie Ross preserved much of the structure of the pre-war Ailsa but supplied a lot of new detail."

(The pre-war yardage was 6,615, against 6984 today. Pre-war par was 80.)

Mark

[Paul Richards]

I've played it in 40-degrees, with 40 mph winds howling, and I've played it in 75-plus degrees, sun and no wind, and I have to say it is probably my second favorite course in Scotland, after Dornoch, of course.

 

[ForkaB]

Many thanks, Mark.

PS--I thought the Arran was a very good 2nd course, but I hear good things about the Kintyre too.

[Wayne Freeman]

Ian-  you raised an interesting point about how at Turnberry, there are no holes that go toward the ocean-  when we played Royal Country Down last month, that very point was raised.  On such an astounding piece of property, how is it that there are no holes using that direction? It would have made for so much more interest regarding wind, angles etc.
   I still thought that Turnberry was fantastic even though I played it in similar conditions to what they're playing today in the Senior Open-  getting blown off the tees wasn't a whole lot of fun, but I'd go back there in a heartbeat.  
    Speaking of prices-  in Ireland, Americans are basically supporting all the big name clubs there.  Green fees are as high as $500 now-  that's what K Club charged our group- I guess there's a Ryder Cup surcharge-  which is just a joke.  But many of the clubs there have monthly dues of $50 for members so if we pay $200-300 for one round that covers a lot of their expenses.
             

[T_MacWood]

Mark
Thanks for the info. If its not too much trouble I'd love to see the original Hutchison plan...I was not aware that Mackenzie Ross utilized part of the original course.  

I have read a few articles written at the time of the reconstruction and they did often refer to it as a restoration or reconstitution. One of the more interesting articles was written by Tom Simpson, where he gave props to his former pupil. He said this new course was going to be much better than the old (nine holes were complete), but I don't think Simpson ever saw Hutchison's version, it was so short lived. In contast the editor of the magazine said in 1939 that Turnberry was at its zenith, "golfing almost outside the Gates of Paradise."

Simpson was a little more complementary to Mackenzie Ross (and the scale of the project) than he was to the course itself, if thats possible. He said it would take its place among the great seaside courses in the British Isles, both as a holiday and championship course. And then went on to say, "Moreover it is an eminently sane one, and as such will commend itself to golfers. Whether on that particular ground it commends itself altogether to me, I'm not very sure, as I have a liking for 'Mad Masterpieces.' "

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom, not too much trouble at all. I will email tomorrow for permissions.  I was very surprised by the pictures and drawings, but I suspect you may be less so.

Great quote, "Mad Masterpieces." Certainly Ailsa fails in that regard.

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Redeanman,

I thought 13 was neat, too.  But not sure I'd put 11 as my favorite par 3. What tipped the balance for you? The location of the hole on the course?

Mark

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Rich, I knew oil was tied to the dollar, but I did not know green fees in the UK were tied to the price of a barrel of oil. If those Brits would take away a few pounds of taxs per gallon then one might not be as upset with $73.00 oil.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()