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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« on: May 26, 2006, 06:45:28 PM »
Does anyone know, or have all you low handicappers forgetten what it's like?

 :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2006, 07:12:54 PM »
George --

Help me out, pardner!

What's "the multiple tee theory"?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2006, 07:57:44 PM »
Dan,

I assume George is talking about the often held theory by many on GCA that providing multiple tees equals a failure in terms of architecture. A distinction must be made between multiple tees and multiple sets of tees. I think the former provides a great deal of elasticity and variety in day-to-day course set-up.

TK

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2006, 08:14:26 PM »
Because when I break a course record from tees that are up, it will have an asterisk next to it?  ;D

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2006, 08:17:47 PM »
The multiple tee theory fails only when it is used in conjunction with the singular or common landing zone theory thereby failing relative to the marginal level of skill needed by players of tees other than that for which the hole was designed to complete the hole in good or natural form.  When multiple tees are used in a well thought design which does not force all players to hit to one of one or two landing areas to successfully negotiate a hole, very competetive matches can be had betwen players of varying skill levels playing different tees without undo burden being placed on handicap strokes.  Further, this approach allows a given course to play as multiple courses from different tees even with singular end goal, the green.  The trouble is this design method takes a great deal of thought and a willingness to abandon some traditional design concepts.

The successful utilization of multiple tees should be considered a great architecturl feat and studied where found.

Cheers!

JT
« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 08:19:10 PM by Jim Thompson »
Jim Thompson

Jordan Wall

Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2006, 08:18:18 PM »
I am pretty low handicap (definitely not as low as some) but play golf with hgigher handicappers.

That is when the theory works.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2006, 08:54:52 PM »
George,

The multiple tee theory, at least on par fours and fives, has more holes in it than Blackburn, Lancashire.

Let's play along and assume that you or higher handicappers are moved up some requisite yardage so that you can reach the same landing area for your drive as Tiger Woods can from tees 100 yards behind you.  Let's say for el Tigre the hole is a 475 yard par four for him, and 375 for you and he's driven it 325 while you've poked one 225 and you're side by side.  He now has a wedge in from 150 while you might need a 5-iron to carry it 150 over the fronting bunker.  Is that playing the same game?

Of course, that also assumes that there is some linear relationship between distance and handicaps.  Hell, I know some 18 and over handicappers who absolutely blast the ball, yet rarely know where it's going.  Their best shots of 300 yards or so will make playing from the up tees sort of silly, yet their worst shots will find trouble from any set of tees.

The whole idea of multiple tees, except perhaps for woman and super-seniors, is based on faulty conclusions and worse yet, bastardizes our collective ideas of architecture as "target golf".   It assumes that everyone should drive to one well defined location, and then approach from there.  It's probably as subtly responsible for many of the rote, unimaginative, and overly stereotypical courses built over the last half century as any other factor.

« Last Edit: May 26, 2006, 08:56:24 PM by Mike Cirba »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2006, 09:00:09 PM »
The whole idea of multiple tees, except perhaps for woman and super-seniors, is based on faulty conclusions and worse yet, bastardizes our collective ideas of architecture as "target golf".   It assumes that everyone should drive to one well defined location, and then approach from there.  It's probably as subtly responsible for many of the rote, unimaginative, and overly stereotypical courses built over the last half century as any other factor.



Mike, Is that another aspect of, or definition of "shot values"?

Mike_Cirba

Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2006, 09:10:04 PM »
Mike, Is that another aspect of, or definition of "shot values"?

Oh Adam...don't get me started on "shot values".  ;)

Really....what the heck is that?!?!   ::) ;D

Jim Nugent

Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2006, 12:27:55 AM »
George,

The multiple tee theory, at least on par fours and fives, has more holes in it than Blackburn, Lancashire.

Let's play along and assume that you or higher handicappers are moved up some requisite yardage so that you can reach the same landing area for your drive as Tiger Woods can from tees 100 yards behind you.  Let's say for el Tigre the hole is a 475 yard par four for him, and 375 for you and he's driven it 325 while you've poked one 225 and you're side by side.  He now has a wedge in from 150 while you might need a 5-iron to carry it 150 over the fronting bunker.  Is that playing the same game?

Of course, that also assumes that there is some linear relationship between distance and handicaps.  Hell, I know some 18 and over handicappers who absolutely blast the ball, yet rarely know where it's going.  Their best shots of 300 yards or so will make playing from the up tees sort of silly, yet their worst shots will find trouble from any set of tees.

The whole idea of multiple tees, except perhaps for woman and super-seniors, is based on faulty conclusions and worse yet, bastardizes our collective ideas of architecture as "target golf".   It assumes that everyone should drive to one well defined location, and then approach from there.  It's probably as subtly responsible for many of the rote, unimaginative, and overly stereotypical courses built over the last half century as any other factor.



You also assume the goal is the same landing area.  That does not have to be the case.  Then, too, there are handicaps, which help level the playing field.  

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2006, 10:42:08 AM »
The multiple tee theory fails only when it is used in conjunction with the singular or common landing zone theory thereby failing relative to the marginal level of skill needed by players of tees other than that for which the hole was designed to complete the hole in good or natural form.  When multiple tees are used in a well thought design which does not force all players to hit to one of one or two landing areas to successfully negotiate a hole, very competetive matches can be had betwen players of varying skill levels playing different tees without undo burden being placed on handicap strokes.  Further, this approach allows a given course to play as multiple courses from different tees even with singular end goal, the green.  The trouble is this design method takes a great deal of thought and a willingness to abandon some traditional design concepts.

The successful utilization of multiple tees should be considered a great architecturl feat and studied where found.

Cheers!

JT

Actually, this is where I think it fails most! :)

I finally got out the other day for the first time this year. Played a very accomodating course (re: wide and non-penal) with a friend who's a scratch golfer, from the same tees (around 6500 yards or so). It struck me how similar we were in distance, and yet he scored quite a few shots better than me.

I think the high handicapper loses shots in a very different way than is normally thought. He's not simply shorter by X%, which is what the multiple tee theory implies (Dan K - I'd say the multiple tee theory says that you can make any course within reason playable and enjoyable for all levels of golfers simply by having many sets of tees of varying lengths).

I'd guess high handicappers lose several shots a side to duffed shots (topped, fatted, etc) and many more shots around the green. I don't think multiple tees help either of these situations in the least.

I agree with a lot of Mike C's post.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2006, 11:37:44 AM »
George,

I would have said, "Where the gca mindlessly locates the forward tees w/o any real consideration as to how the players use them."  I have seen too many forward tees (including a few of my own) that are not thought out at all, or at least have been hindered by "unintended consequences" like having a big upslope in the normal landing area, having a forced carry on the second shot too far from the first landing area, etc.

BTW, you are correct that many of a 100 shooters 28 "extra shots" are duffs, bad chips and poor three putts.  You could argue that only a few extra shots are added by having holes too long, since the player would often being playing a short third shot to the green, whether from the side or in front.  However, if nearly every hole is beyond their reach in regulation figures, can the course be any fun?

I am not ready to abandon the multiple tee theory quite yet, but am always looking for ways to improve it.  I think the reason we see so many is that the course needs (according to USGA reps and my own experience) 200 sf of tee per thousand rounds - ie 4000 SF at low play clubs and up to 8-10,000 SF for the busiest munis.

Since that tee has to be built anyway for maintenance reasons, it really costs no more to build some of it in different locations.  If we used one tee on a hole, and wish to provide suitable challenges to all players, we either need to extend fw bunkers Pete Dye waste bunker style along the entire length of the fw, or use "random bunkering" scattering them at different distances to affect play differently.  

Its not that there is anything wrong with that, either in theory, or even as a change of pace on multiple tee holes. The problem is that each bunker costs to build and then maintain in infinity, so it is really more cost effective to build one primary landing area and simply stagger some tees, with the side benefits of reducing froced carries, if any, dogleg angles and other concessions to make the course slightly more forgiving for the vast majority who pay the bills, if located correctly.

BTW, Fazio has taken the lead in separating tees side to side, so each player isn't seeing other tees, to get a feel of the old days.

I do agree that getting players to a similar landing area off the tee doesn't allow for the same approach shot.  However, what is the alternative?  Certainly more or even more widely scattered tees have their problems.  Getting a hole to where the golfer hits the same clubs as Tiger is nearly impossible.

For that matter, it is somewhat futile to assume that a large majority of players are going to hit it to the turn point nearly exactly.  In fact, a one day USGA studiy showed that about 22% of middle tee tee shots don't make it 130 yards, i.e., were scuffed somehow. Although there were clusters of tee shots at 200,230 and 260 yards, the actual distance of 150 shots that day was well distributed.

As we discussed in the 400 yard hole thread, some hole distances are problematical in design.  Another example is 475 yard par 4, where I usually go against the long shot big green formula to build a small green - requires accuracy from the tigers and accepts the wedge of the average guy on the third shot okay.

On the other hand, for those of you who propose a single large tee (or perhaps only two) what design conventions do you propose to introduce to replace them in modern thinking?

(PS to Jim Thompson - if one or two landing areas isn't enough, how many do you propose is required on most holes?  I understand that there can be subtle differences, diminishing returns, etc. but two basic landing areas provides choice, at the minimum of construction and maintenance costs, no?  We have seen the gradual destrcution of the Lido rize doglegs over the years every time the economy goes bad, because we find that playes gravitate to the "best" route and it seems unnecessary for a cash strapped club to maintain a landing are that only a few golfers use.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

redanman

Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2006, 11:40:20 AM »
There is a very strong argument for one or two tees max.  


You don't choose or else you play the forward tee set if you can't handle the back.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2006, 11:41:41 AM »
Bill,

And what is that argument?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2006, 01:14:35 PM »
I do agree that getting players to a similar landing area off the tee doesn't allow for the same approach shot.  However, what is the alternative?

I see two alternatives -- one fanciful, one serious.

Fanciful: Multiple greens.

Serious: Greens that accept and allow successful shots with many and various clubs -- i.e., that allow an aerial or ground approach.

Seems to me, as the father of a 14-year-old girl, that far too many greens are perfectly happy to accept my 165-yard 6-iron -- but not my daughter's 165-yard shot with her hybrid club.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

redanman

Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2006, 01:45:12 PM »
Jeff

It's the argument that the Scots give you.  You play this set of tees or that set of tees.

One of the things that I like about the two tee approach is that the tee wear is reduced.  We have four sets of tees on small teeing grounds at our club because

a) the shorter-hitting gents won't demean themselves to the "women's" tees.  This yields two areas often 4 yards apart on a tee 6-10 yards long and 2-3 paces wide every day; not good.

b) Only an additional six-12 yards is gained on all but 6 holes (only 4 truly different tee boxes) for the "backs"

I like it when clubs get away from the "red, white and blue" tee markers.  Reds for the backmost and blue (or even better ... black for the most forward set of tees would seem ideal. :)

Jeff, I also think that more than two tees slows some groups down.  Hell, four people on one single tee is too much for some groups of golfers to execute in less than ten minutes! (seemingly) :)

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2006, 03:46:23 PM »
Dan, you'll find it funny that, when I thought more about this "problem", it occured to me that, since more strokes are lost around the green, it would make more sense to have multiple greens than multiple tees!

Jeff -

I'm not against 2 or even 3 tees, though the fewer the better, in my book. I just don't like the 4, 5, 6 tee setups that one sees a lot on modern courses. Heck, they often get higher as you go back, too, I guess because the (wussy :)) low handicappers need that extra visibility, so that negates the length at least somewhat anyway.

And I think it is virtually meaningless to chart "average" tee shots for the vast majority of golfers. When I played the other day, on 11 driving holes (had to leave early), I think I hit 2 tee shots between 50-100 yards, 4 around 260-280, and the rest anywhere from 200-250. Can anyone even extrapolate a meaningful average from that?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2006, 07:47:30 PM »
Bill V, I saw an example of red back tees last year at Stanford.  The Cardinal's course has red championship tees and blue & golf (for the hated rival California Golden Bears) forward tees!  What a hoot!

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2006, 08:06:20 PM »
What about the idea of multiple tees to create multiple strategies on the same hole. Forget about the idea of shorter tees and longer tees to even out handicaps, how about about the idea of a few tees placed at various angles and possibly various distances to provide options on a day to day basis?

-Ted

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2006, 08:03:10 AM »
Bill V, I saw an example of red back tees last year at Stanford.  The Cardinal's course has red championship tees and blue & golf (for the hated rival California Golden Bears) forward tees!  What a hoot!

Bill McBride

you should see Merion - the back tees are red and the front tees are maroon.  Similarly, the front nine wicker baskets are red, and the back nine are maroon (or was it vice-versa - can a Merion member help here?)

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2006, 10:19:52 AM »
What about the idea of multiple tees to create multiple strategies on the same hole. Forget about the idea of shorter tees and longer tees to even out handicaps, how about about the idea of a few tees placed at various angles and possibly various distances to provide options on a day to day basis?

-Ted

That can happen when the land allows.  Also, I proposed a few holes at the Quarry and the pro started wondering how they would handicap the course with holes 16 and 18 switching par and distance, not to mention how to print the cards.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

redanman

Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2006, 10:20:09 AM »
Shinnecock has red back tees; I'm pretty sure that Seminole does and NGLA has reds for backs or regular tees.

The way Stanfoo does it with Cal up front is just cruel!    ;)  I mean clever.

redanman

Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2006, 10:29:34 AM »
What about the idea of multiple tees to create multiple strategies on the same hole. Forget about the idea of shorter tees and longer tees to even out handicaps, how about about the idea of a few tees placed at various angles and possibly various distances to provide options on a day to day basis?

-Ted

I don't think anyone would not think this clever and desirable, I had had the idea that the discussion was on how many tees were placed  out on a given day.  

This whole discussion also begs the discussion in that how well do matches with handicaps work from players on "different tees".  One can adjust a handicap additionally for differences in stroke ratings from different tee sets, but just how well do handicaps really work at all?

Aren't the best matches among groups of players that actually know each other's games and just agree to give "two a side" or so?

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2006, 10:52:51 PM »
I am not ready to abandon the multiple tee theory quite yet, but am always looking for ways to improve it.  I think the reason we see so many is that the course needs (according to USGA reps and my own experience) 200 sf of tee per thousand rounds - ie 4000 SF at low play clubs and up to 8-10,000 SF for the busiest munis.


Jeff,

I can see that on par 3s, but is it really valid on par 4s and 5s today?  With today's drivers, everyone is using driver on almost every hole, from scratch to hackers.  And those big wide soles probably make it pretty difficult to take much turf unless it is very wet.  And tall tees help keep your club away from the ground as well.

If you need 10000 sq ft for the busiest munis on a par 3 I'd imagine that on most par 4s and 5s you could get by 1000 sq ft.  Surely just standing there and swinging isn't stressing the grass too much?
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Jim Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Where the multiple tee theory fails....
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2006, 11:21:15 PM »
The multiple tee theory fails only when it is used in conjunction with the singular or common landing zone theory thereby failing relative to the marginal level of skill needed by players of tees other than that for which the hole was designed to complete the hole in good or natural form.  When multiple tees are used in a well thought design which does not force all players to hit to one of one or two landing areas to successfully negotiate a hole, very competetive matches can be had betwen players of varying skill levels playing different tees without undo burden being placed on handicap strokes.  Further, this approach allows a given course to play as multiple courses from different tees even with singular end goal, the green.  The trouble is this design method takes a great deal of thought and a willingness to abandon some traditional design concepts.

The successful utilization of multiple tees should be considered a great architecturl feat and studied where found.

Cheers!

JT

Actually, this is where I think it fails most! :)

I finally got out the other day for the first time this year. Played a very accomodating course (re: wide and non-penal) with a friend who's a scratch golfer, from the same tees (around 6500 yards or so). It struck me how similar we were in distance, and yet he scored quite a few shots better than me.

I think the high handicapper loses shots in a very different way than is normally thought. He's not simply shorter by X%, which is what the multiple tee theory implies (Dan K - I'd say the multiple tee theory says that you can make any course within reason playable and enjoyable for all levels of golfers simply by having many sets of tees of varying lengths).

I'd guess high handicappers lose several shots a side to duffed shots (topped, fatted, etc) and many more shots around the green. I don't think multiple tees help either of these situations in the least.

I agree with a lot of Mike C's post.

George,

Sounds to me like tee pride went before your fall.  If your opponent was that much better than you, he should have given you something by moving backward or letting you move forward or just strokes.  If the premise is that you both hit all your clubs the same distance, but he with greater skill, then you need to be put in a starting position where you are hitting either wedge out of the rough instead of seven iron or a shorter more forgiving club off the tee thereby minimizing your errors.  I don't know where you played, but if you ever get out to my place and try it, it would work.  When you see it done right, I think you'll get it.  The problem is that, in most cases, either no consideration was given to this concept in design or folks won't play different tees.

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson