In Defense Of The Runway Tee

[TEPaul]

I actually remember when Pine Tree was being built and the notoriety of that super-long tee on #16.

That was in the age of "Big scale" architecture, mostly RTJ and Dick Wilson.

However, even if we just look at that kind of thing back then as "Big Scale" or super-elasticity I think there was more to it than that.

Those two were onto something in my opinion, and it probably had more to do with ranking than we realize today.

You see that was during the time of course rankings that preceded the 100 Best Course list. Originally the ranking list was labeled the 200 Hardest Courses.

What constituted "hard"? Basically course rating did. And what primarily constituted a high course rating?

Total scorecard distance did!!

It was "Big Scale" architecture but it was also probably the quickest and easiest way to get ranked high back then, and RTJ and Wilson picked up on that ploy bigtime.  

[wsmorrison]

Looking through Flynn's drawings over time (I'm compiling a digital archive for the USGA) it is quite clear that Flynn evolved from smaller discreet tees (he was an early user of multiple tees and markers on a given day for various abilities and not multiple tees with one tee marker on a given day for all golfers to play from the same tee) to long runway tees, some over 100 yards long.  

The flexibility afforded by these long tees allow different features, natural and man-made, to come into play with different conditions of wind and/or turf firmness.  It also allows for back tees to be used in championships.  

Is it easier to mow one long tee than individual smaller tees?  If so, given Flynn's background as an early great greenskeeper, it would have been something he would promote.

[Mike Hendren]

In other words, the topic is a joke.

Perhaps a reference to Michelle Wie would legitimize it.

Mike

[Mike Hendren]

So, I ask you, just how long would runway tees have to be to accomodate a wide spectrum of golfing abilities these days?   Surely 50 yards (150') wouldn't do it.  Would you still like runway tees if they were 150 yards long?

Just another reason why the sky is indeed falling.  

David,

Tees fifty yards long would yield approximately 828 yards of flexbility for 18 holes (markers set no closer than 1 yard from the front of the "box" and leaving two clublengths and a reasonable stance at the back of the "box.")

By example, that would yield a range from 5900 yards to 6728 yards.  Among the golfing populace, anybody that needs more golf course or less golf course is likely an outlier.  Smaller teeing areas could be built to accomodate those outliers, I suppose.  This is consistent with Brad Klein's reference to three turfed areas.  

Something like this:

x        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx         x

Kindest regards,

Mike

Perhaps I should say:  "The sky is not falling ON ME!"

[A_Clay_Man]

Bogota, You cite their elasticity, but that's only on the vertical. A boomerang tee is elastic on the horozontal allowing for a change in angles.

 The runway tee's perfect use is on dictated architecture.
 

[Brad Klein]

I was thinking more like:

            XXX
XXXX  XXX  XXXX
XXXX  XXX  XXXX

                    XX
XX   XXXX     XX
XX   XXXX     XX
XX  


XXXXXX   XXX      XXX
XXXXXX   XXX      XXX
XXXXXX

[Mike Hendren]

The runway tee's perfect use is on dictated architecture.
 

Adam,

Place me on any runway and I believe I can hit the ball in any direction - 360 degrees - perhaps intentionally.

Also, I love options, but there is room in the game (not my game) for an architectural style that says "just bring it."

Mike

[A_Clay_Man]

Bogus, 360 degrees, yes, unless the runway is also sided by a forest.

If I understand Dr. Kleins' diagram, it is elastic on both dimensions.

Touching on the original premise, Herr Doak's comment.... I believe he regrets the potential over use, as in a decades worth.

Does that mean an occasional one or two would be variety?

[Peter Pallotta]

As far as I can tell, Bogey was simply offering a defense of the runway tee; I don't think he even expressed a marked preference for them.

I still haven't seen a refutation of some of his points in their favour: e.g. that if well placed they can obfuscate the lines of charm, that they provide flexibility, that they're easy to maintain etc.

Also, maybe runway tees are a lost cause. Well, if so, that's all the more reason to defend them.

In the words of Jefferson Smith: "You remember lost causes, don't you Mr. Payne? A man we both loved and admired once said they were the only causes worth fighting for".

It helps keep things in balance.

Peter

[Tony Ristola]

Perhpas not runway tees, but I like the idea of continuous tees. They can squirm about like a snake, offering different angles, elevations and lengths, all within one tee. Parts of the tees could be hidden by vegetation. Haven't built any yet, but look forward to doing it. It would make maintenance easier too, as fairway mowers could be used (they look like old triplex greens mowers nowadays), saving time.

[Forrest Richardson]

I have firsthand experience, having had to weigh the positives at The Wigwam, where Mr. Jones, Sr. left several landing strips.

One of the positive aspects of such tees is that they exponentially increase the options to a given hole — in terms of length variation.

While it may not be a popular design trait (among many here), the idea of having a flexible yardage on a hole can be entertaining. Especially for players that play a course over and over. After all, we change flagstick locations — and have the many variables of wind, grass heights, seasonal conditions, etc.  

So, why not add to the list the sliding measurement of length? Even if by 10-yards, the adjustment in tee marker placement allows for choices once thought "perfect" to be contemplated by the golfer...which can be quite stimulating.

(Ugly...yes. So, our solution was to break some up into a few levels, still maintaining the runway, but with some intermissions.)

[DMoriarty]

Tees fifty yards long would yield approximately 828 yards of flexbility for 18 holes (markers set no closer than 1 yard from the front of the "box" and leaving two clublengths and a reasonable stance at the back of the "box.")

By example, that would yield a range from 5900 yards to 6728 yards.  Among the golfing populace, anybody that needs more golf course or less golf course is likely an outlier.  Smaller teeing areas could be built to accomodate those outliers, I suppose.  This is consistent with Brad Klein's reference to three turfed areas.  

Something like this:

x        xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx         x

Kindest regards,

Mike

Perhaps I should say:  "The sky is not falling ON ME!"

Anybody who needs more than 6700 yards an outlier?   Perhaps you dont notice the falling sky because your head is buried so deep in the sand.  

Plus, while a 50 yard tee might work for a variety of golfers on a short hole, say a short par 4, but fifty yards in not nearly enough on a longer hole, for example a very long par 4.  

[Peter Pallotta]

David, sort-of OT
did you see the recent test Golf Magazine ran on how teeing the ball at different heights affects driving distance?

What struck me is that a group of 0-9 handicappers hit dozens of balls each. Their average drives carried 219 yards. Yes, 219 yards. I think the average drive of the 10-20 handicappers went something like 185 yards.

Just one test, yes, and carry distance is not everything, yes, but, if they were asked before the test how far their average drives went, how many of those low handicappers do you think would've said "oh, about 220 yards".

Not many, I'm guessing (at least, I've never heard one say anything but, "oh 250, 260").  I don't want to jack the thread, but I don't think "talk" (golfers, it seems, tend to exaggerate) of increased driving distance can be used one way or another to debate the value of runway tees.

Peter

[Mike Hendren]

David,

In my opinion, the belief that 6700 yards is not enough golf course is the great lie in today's game.  

Also, don't worry about where my head is.  The view here in fly-over country is surprisingly pristine.  

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, you mistake Dick Wilson using them for him using them well. It's a matter of scale, proportion and landscape aesthetic that makes me find them, for the most part, objectionable.

Brad,

It would seem that the lower they are, the closer to the surrounding grade, the less objectionable they seem..

Pine Tree, Seminole and GCGC seem to fit that mold, although there are exceptions.  # 9 at Seminole is elevated due to drainage and flooding problems in that area.

Peter Pallotta,

Once they lose their strict rectangular shape they lose their appeal to me.  I"m more of a traditionalist and don't like free form tees of any length.

[Jason McNamara]

Often times in the UK the ladies tees are about 30 yards from the medal tees.  I say keep it simple.

Good point, that.  In the States one is less likely to see forward tees at (say) 5800 yds, par 76.

Jason

[ForkaB]

One positive that hasn't been mentioned is that if you top-dribble or super-sky the tee ball, you are likely to get a primo lie for your next shot.

[Mike Hendren]

Exhibits A & B from Garden City Golf Club, courtesy of THE redanman:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=garden+city+NY&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=40.732661,-73.646295&spn=0.00151,0.00339&t=k&iwloc=A

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=garden+city+NY&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=40.727476,-73.646038&spn=0.00151,0.00339&t=k&iwloc=A

Mike

[Joe Hancock]

One positive that hasn't been mentioned is that if you top-dribble or super-sky the tee ball, you are likely to get a primo lie for your next shot.

Rich,

What if one badly pulls their top-dribble? Isn't the half stroke penalty of the deep rough alongside the tee unfair?

Joe

[Bill_McBride]

One of the greatest pars ever made was out of the deep rough on the sloping side of #16 tee at Doral Blue in a scramble, when we had to use my non-golfing teammate's tee ball on our last hole in a shotgun.   He dribbled it down the LONG tee and it stayed in the rough on the side slope.  I hit 4 wood out of the rough over the cross bunkers, hit PW to 20' and made the putt.  Routine.  

That situation was caused by the runway (aircraft carrier) tee.  The end of the tee was maybe 12" below the back end, and that slope was unmowed.  I was lucky to be able to get the clubhead on the shot!

[Joe Hancock]

Bill,

Exquisite talent is not bothered by matters of unfairness.

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci]

I think they work very well at GCGC, Seminole, Pine Tree and Boca Rio.

If they're an integral part of the overall architecture and fit the property then I don't see how they're objectionable.

When holes get lengthened, the choice is, create a new tee or extend the existing one.

In many cases when a new tee is created the angle of attack is altered.  That usually doesn't happen when an existing tee is extended, thus the design integrity of the hole is preserved.

Since an inordinate number of courses have been lengthened over the last 20 years I'd prefer to preserve the architect's intent relative to angles of attack and play of the hole, by merely extending his original work.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

Exquisite talent is not bothered by matters of unfairness.

Joe

Exactly!  

[Bill_McBride]

LINK TO RUNWAY TEE SEMINOLE STYLE

AND CHECK OUT THE MOTHER OF THEM ALL

Bill, which course is the latter?  At first glance I thought the dogleg  left in the lower left corner was #18 Doral Blue.  But it's Delray Beach and I don't know those courses.  Thanks.

[James Bennett]

Bill

I did zoom in and out at Delray Beach on Google.  There are a lot of golf courses in that area - very close too each other. Must be seven or more.  I assume it is a golfing/retirement community.

The golf courses look more varied in their architecture than the surrounding real estate.

James B