Where do Doak's courses rate on the Doak scale?

[Sean_A]

I think we have had Tom now add a few more criteria or at least explanations as to the difference between a 9 and 10.  1) Test of time in terms of TD revisiting a handful of times over several years and still finding cool things he missed and still thinking the course is among the handful of the best in the world.  2) There is no difference in quality, only there is a preference for the 10s which can't be qualified in terms of what makes them better and in the end, he just prefers them to the 9s.  I have read Tom state that the short par 4s are the difference between great and very nearly great courses and he may have said this about 10s & 9s, but I don't recall exactly. 

Ciao

[Jonathan Cummings]

Of the Doak courses I've played (below) I've created, in the spirit of GW's modern list, an "imaginary" modern world list.  Associated with each course is my personal GW score, an estimate of where that course would stand in the imaginary world list and my Doak score estimate.  (AC and Yeaman's are redos and would better belong on an imaginary world classic list).  JC 


Doak Course   "GW" Rank   GW Score   Doak Score

Pac Dunes   Top 10   10   10
Barnbougle Dunes   Top 10   9.5   9
Cape Kidnappers   Top 25   9   9
Ballyneal   Top 25   9   9
Sebonak   Top 50   8.5   8
RCCC   Top 50   8.5   8
Renaissance Club   Top 75   8   8
(Atlantic City)   Top 75   8   8
Apache Stronghold   Top 75   8   8
Stonewall   Top 100   7.5   7
(Yeaman's Hall)   Top 100   7   7
Lost Dunes   Top 200   6   6
Stone Eagle   Top 200   6   5
Legends- Heathland   Top 250   5.5   5
Stonewall - North   Top 250   5.5   6
Beechtree   Top 250   5.5   5
Charlotte   Top 250   5.5   5
Black Forest   Top 300   5   5
Tumble Creek   Top 300   5   5
High Pointe   Top 400   4.5   4
St Andrew's Beach   Top 500   4   4
Riverfront   Top 500   4   4

[Peter Ferlicca]

John

I am pretty sure you have posted that on another thread before and trust me STONE EAGLE is way better than a 5 on the Doak rating.  Have you even played there.  I am sure tons of people of this thread would agree with me on that one.

Peter

[Jonathan Cummings]

Peter - I've played SE 3 times.  I am well aware I differ from others about SE.  JC

[Peter Ferlicca]

JC

What do you feel makes Stone Eagle a 5 on the Doak Rating.  Even Doak himself said it is much higher than that, I think he said it was a 7.  I know me and John Kirk, Jeremy Kinney all feel that it is an 8.  I am curious why you think it is a 5.

[Tom_Doak]

Jonathan:

I would not even pretend to understand the GOLFWEEK numbers, but I do understand the Doak scale pretty well, so I can assure you that the numbers on the far right do not correlate well with your imaginary world rankings on the left.

There are many many more 5's, 6's, and 7's on the Doak scale than 8's, 9's and 10's.  The Doak scale works more like a Bell curve -- there are very few 10's and 0's, but a lot of courses in the middle.  If you really came up with a complete list of the top 300 courses in the world, all of them that were rated in The Confidential Guide would have received a 6 or better [unless of course I strongly disagreed with your list in a particular case].  And I do not have the tally handy, but I'm sure there were more than 100 courses rated at a 7 even before I starting adding to them as an architect.

Now, I do not think you really believe that Charlotte Golf Links would be one of the top 250 courses in the world, so maybe your Doak rating of that one is okay.  But if you believe Stone Eagle is in the top 200, then it's a 6 or a 7 on the Doak scale, not a 5.

[Sean Leary]

Jonathan:

I would not even pretend to understand the GOLFWEEK numbers, but I do understand the Doak scale pretty well, so I can assure you that the numbers on the far right do not correlate well with your imaginary world rankings on the left.

There are many many more 5's, 6's, and 7's on the Doak scale than 8's, 9's and 10's.  The Doak scale works more like a Bell curve -- there are very few 10's and 0's, but a lot of courses in the middle.  If you really came up with a complete list of the top 300 courses in the world, all of them that were rated in The Confidential Guide would have received a 6 or better [unless of course I strongly disagreed with your list in a particular case].  And I do not have the tally handy, but I'm sure there were more than 100 courses rated at a 7 even before I starting adding to them as an architect.

Now, I do not think you really believe that Charlotte Golf Links would be one of the top 250 courses in the world, so maybe your Doak rating of that one is okay.  But if you believe Stone Eagle is in the top 200, then it's a 6 or a 7 on the Doak scale, not a 5.

TD,

JC meant modern courses only in his ranking..

[Jonathan Cummings]

Sean is right.  These numbers seem skewed higher because I am only considering modern courses.  JC

[Kevin Pallier]

Jonathan

Aprreciate your thoughts on the topic. Also - appreciate that each is to their own but St. Andrews's Beach a 4 ?

I have it around at least a 7 - why so far down your interpreation of the scale ?

[Andy Troeger]

I can't see Charlotte Golf Links being anywhere near the Top 250 of anything on a US or World scale. Its a nice public course at a reasonable fee, but there are probably twenty public courses just in Indiana that are as good at a reasonable fee. I think a 4 would be generous. I'd probably put Lost Dunes around a 7. Apache Stronghold would be in that range if conditioning wasn't considered.

[John Kirk]

Hi guys...

Actually, Peter, when Ian Linford offered us a chance to rate the courses, I gave Stone Eagle a 7, though I think it is an even better place to hang out and spend the day.  (I'm looking forward to Ian's compiled stats from our group)

I think Ballyneal is the best course I've played by Tom.  Ballyneal and Pac Dunes are 10s.  Rock Creek is an 8.  Sebonack, Stone Eagle and the Renaissance Club are 7s.  They're all wonderful.

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

Pac Dunes and Ballyneal are also 10s in my book. Loved them both, but prefer RCCC. As TD pointed out, CPC is a 10 even with its supposedly sub-par #18. I liked #18 at RCCC and was sorry I had to leave.

[Kalen Braley]

I put the top 3 TD courses I've played like this.  Ballyneal got the slight edge over RCCC, even though they are both solid 9s.  But for sure, you can't go wrong with any of these as they are all amazing golf courses worth every effort to see them.

1)  Pac Dunes 9.5
2)  Ballyneal 9
3)  RCCC 9

[Craig Van Egmond]

Kalen,

      This is the point where Tom Doak points out that there are no half points in the Doak Scale and that you need to man up. Its either a 9 or a 10. Well what's it going to be?   

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,

      This is the point where Tom Doak points out that there are no half points in the Doak Scale and that you need to man up. Its either a 9 or a 10. Well what's it going to be?   

Well by definition I can't give PD a 10 because I've only played it once...even though i have actually done that for one course I've played!! 

So its going to have to be a 9 then!!   

[Chris_Clouser]

The only Doak course I have played is Quail Crossing and it's a very solid 4. 

Now let the trumpeting of the top of Doak's portfolio resume.

[Jim Nugent]

I'm real eager to hear how the people on this website rank Old Mac, after it opens. 

[Jim Franklin]

I'm real eager to hear how the people on this website rank Old Mac, after it opens. 

I will let you know in a year. I have 3 rounds set there in August 2010.

[George Pazin]

Of the Doak courses I've played (below) I've created, in the spirit of GW's modern list, an "imaginary" modern world list.  Associated with each course is my personal GW score, an estimate of where that course would stand in the imaginary world list and my Doak score estimate.  (AC and Yeaman's are redos and would better belong on an imaginary world classic list).  JC 


Doak Course   "GW" Rank   GW Score   Doak Score

Pac Dunes   Top 10   10   10
Barnbougle Dunes   Top 10   9.5   9
Cape Kidnappers   Top 25   9   9
Ballyneal   Top 25   9   9
Sebonak   Top 50   8.5   8
RCCC   Top 50   8.5   8
Renaissance Club   Top 75   8   8
(Atlantic City)   Top 75   8   8
Apache Stronghold   Top 75   8   8
Stonewall   Top 100   7.5   7
(Yeaman's Hall)   Top 100   7   7
Lost Dunes   Top 200   6   6
Stone Eagle   Top 200   6   5
Legends- Heathland   Top 250   5.5   5
Stonewall - North   Top 250   5.5   6
Beechtree   Top 250   5.5   5
Charlotte   Top 250   5.5   5
Black Forest   Top 300   5   5
Tumble Creek   Top 300   5   5
High Pointe   Top 400   4.5   4
St Andrew's Beach   Top 500   4   4
Riverfront   Top 500   4   4

I think between the two of us, we may have played them all.

I've played Rawls.

 

Rawls is a George 10, I can't even begin to understand other scales.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Georgie - you know me.  I'm a traveling fool and will cover your back on the RGD courses you've missed!

For all of you, I follow Doak like a lap dog.  He endures me because I trumpet a number of his designs.  He splits a gut over some of those I'm less fond of.

Here's my take.  Throw your darts!

Stone Eagle is built on unwalkable tortured land that a course was never meant to be considered.  Doak and Clan did a very good job with what they had.  Problem is, they should have walked away from this project.

St Andrews is OK but forgetable.  The long par 3 on the back and a couple of par 4s are the only memorable holes with any shot character of the lot.

RCCC is under-rated by nearly everybody.  While the course is a little less, as for overall golfing experience, it may well be a Doak 10.

Renaissance is very good, maybe an inside the park home run, but nowhere near a grand slam.

Apache is some of the best architecture in modern golf.  Naysayers who insist they will only reassess their views when its at Augusta conditions should be ignored.  The land forms, flow, routing and theme persist even before the place was grassed.  AP should be a required study in modern gca.

Can't get over the highway at Lost Dunes.

Black Forest is underrated.

High Point is overrated.

Beechtree (RIP) was an OK course.  Somehow, living nearby, I was never inspired to revisit.

Sebanok - too hard.

Charlotte - far more gca character than people give credit for.

Legends - Doak sleeper

Ballyneal - full home run.  Besides the wonderful golf, staying and eating there is something more should experience.

Riverfront - I can't get excited by any course choked with housing.

Barnbougle/Pac - Babe Ruthian home runs.

[Jeff Taylor]

Having been there last week, the guests that had a chance to play it were unanimous about Ol Mac's superiority. What does that mean? Who knows. However, I was able to photograph part opf the couse, and it looks like old time golf. I cannnot imagine someone being disppointed with the experience.

[Jim Nugent]

Does anyone have info about Doak's new course in Mexico, Bay of Dreams?  Don't recall any threads about it.   

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

Thanks for your candid comments ...

A few retorts --

What does it matter that Stone Eagle is located on a tough site. The issue is whether the final product does justice to core golf design elements -- shots being rewarded acordingly and being penalized accordingly. I have played a good number of hilly courses made for some very demanding sites. Stone Eagle works quite well even with the demands the terrain provides. Jonathan, you need to itemize specific issues tied to respective holes there that don't work -- otherwise your comments are far from anything more than vague and quite general. You say the course is "tortured" -- OK -- so what's the details you have to offer to flush that out. Jonathan, I don't mind people liking or not liking a course but I'd like to hear specifics tied to the holes there.

In regards to RCCC how is the course "a little less ... for (an) overall golf experience."

Jonathan, in regards to Apache Stronghold -- c'mon, no one I know -- certainly not me -- as advocated that AS can only be considered when it has Augusta-like condition -- you are the guy who is placing that level of turf quality into the mixture. What I have said is that after three (3) visits to the place I want to see some basic items -- does level tees hurt? Or how about some turf in the fairways? That would be a novel concept -- don't you think? Or having greens that roll with some sort of consistency?

Jonathan, you are right to compliment what is it AS from a standpoint of potential. I just want to see the place managed better so that the design elements are indeed brought to their fullest grandness. That has not happened in my visits there and frankly until I hear differently the course gets no more than an incomplete from me.

Agree with you on Beechtree.

Sebonack is a hard course -- but clearly people who say that need to tell me what tees they played and if they still persist that it's too hard then I need to know which hole(s) they are talking about?

I have more -- but let's start with those for now.

Thanks ...

[Gene Greco]

Apache is some of the best architecture in modern golf.  Naysayers who insist they will only reassess their views when its at Augusta conditions should be ignored.  The land forms, flow, routing and theme persist even before the place was grassed.  AP should be a required study in modern gca.

Jonathan:

     I thought I was the only one who felt this way. Thanks for confirming what I have thought from the time I hit my  approach to the first green at Apache Stronghold.

             Gene

[Jonathan Cummings]

Easy Matt - this is not targeted at you.  Stone Eagle is too sloped to be considered great.  I feel that every shot requires one foot above the other or you forever leaning forward or back.  Some of this goes a long way but give me a level lie at least once in a while.  It's unwalkability speaks volumes to the quality of the piece of property.  The drive from the clubhouse up Mt Olympus, along that wonderful "natural" babbling brook prepares you for a round on a highly sloped rocky skree.  Maybe very good but short of great.

Matt - I think my poor communication skills have led you to believe I think something less of RCCC.  Nothing is further from the truth.  I would join it over Ballyneal.  I was just saying that while I couldn't give the course a 10, I could give the overall experience staying at RCCC and enjoying the entire package a 10.

Apache Stronghold??  This forum should put our money together and buy the place.  The GCA Course could then be our headquarters and Mecca.

Matt has more to say?  Say that isn't true 

(love ya Matt)

J