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Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Eden Holes
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2006, 12:43:13 PM »
Exactly Misuere Redanman....

In my opinion another important thing to add is where it comes during the round. in the context of the Old Course, it's a precursor of things that are to come--soon.

Also, I like this description from Desmond Muirhead's book with Tip Anderson:

Desmond: This green may have the steepest continuous slope in the world, but at least it's one that slopes toward you and from above, at least, presents a clearly visable target, unlike most of the greens at St. Andrews. That's an advantage, but it makes this hole the most open to the elements.

Tip: It makes the green surface dry and very fast. Ye want to have an uphill putt on this hole. nless the grass is grown long, a downhill putt won't stop and sidehill putts have a borrow you won't believe.

Desmond: I'll believe anything about this hole. Tip, you can't take your eyes off any of the bunkers, but for all of that sheer mass of Cockle, Strath is easily the most dominant and most significant greenside bunker anywhere. Hill bunker is like a bottomless, circular well with those dark gloomy shadowsand invisable sand. I sometimes think Hill simply bores into the center of the earth.

Tip: Then, if you go over the green, yer in deep trouble. There's the Eden River, deep rough and the little bunker Bobby Jones got in once right back of the hole.

Desmond: Back to front, there's probably a ten percent downhill slope on this green; I doubt that anyone could stop the ball on this fast dry surface. The slope bottoms out and then comes up again at the lip of the Strath Bunker like a cross section of a wave. There's an enormous tension between the steep slope of the green and the menace of the Strath, and this is transmitted tothe golfer. You want to land the ball just over the bunkers lip and stop it in the hollow to avoid the slope and the nasty, downhill putt, but that's the problem. In a tournament, you'd have to be desperate to go for the pin when it's behind the Strath, and hope for a reasonable line to the hole.

Tip: Ye'll find it's no' so easy to get putts close to the right side, owing to the wind. Ye're likely to leave most putts in the six-to-ten-foot range.







Chris Moore

Re:Eden Holes
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2006, 02:50:49 PM »
Apart from the severe back-to-front slope, would the 12th at ANGC be a variety of an Eden hole?  Seens more like the original than some of the reproductions written about here.  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Eden Holes
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2006, 03:16:20 PM »
Chris:

Actually, the fourth at Augusta National was supposed to be MacKenzie and Jones's version of the Eden, although you could be forgiven for failing to recognize the hole today at 240 yards!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2021, 10:01:14 AM »
Forgive me if the information is on another thread somewhere, if so the search engine herein didn’t find it, but how many examples of ‘copies-replica’s-inspired by etc’ of the Eden hole at TOC do folks think there are, where are they, which hole numbers and who was the architect involved?
Atb

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2021, 11:53:26 AM »
While the Eden hole at NGLA (the 13th) is a great hole, I actually thought it seemed somewhat disconnected from the rest of the layout. Not sure why that is? Anyone else feel that way? Maybe it was the forced carry over a pond ... which made it feel more like an Augusta hole than a National hole? The14th also has water in play in front of the tee, but ... not really.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2021, 12:24:38 PM »
One of the best Eden holes I've seen is the 5th hole at the Longue Vue Club near Pittsburgh, which is being used as the second course this week at the US Amateur.   Designed by Robert White, the course also features a daunting redan hole at the 3rd.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2021, 01:11:26 PM »
While the Eden hole at NGLA (the 13th) is a great hole, I actually thought it seemed somewhat disconnected from the rest of the layout. Not sure why that is? Anyone else feel that way? Maybe it was the forced carry over a pond ... which made it feel more like an Augusta hole than a National hole? The14th also has water in play in front of the tee, but ... not really.


Partly the 13th feels disconnected because of the awkward walk back from the 12th green.  When we were there in April, we were speculating about which of The National's greens might be Perry Maxwell's work -- he did SOMETHING there in the 1930's -- and we noticed that the approach short and low left of today's 12th green felt like an old green site.  I wonder if Maxwell built the current green further back, which then requires the walk back?


But, Macdonald was the one who prescribed the forced carry off the tee on the 13th, on the grounds that someone should not get away with a topped shot running all the way up to the green, as can happen at St. Andrews.




Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2021, 05:19:22 PM »
Forgive me if the information is on another thread somewhere, if so the search engine herein didn’t find it, but how many examples of ‘copies-replica’s-inspired by etc’ of the Eden hole at TOC do folks think there are, where are they, which hole numbers and who was the architect involved?
Atb



4th at ANGC by Dr Mack’
5th at Royal Melbourne West by Dr Mack’
………………?
……………..?
……………..?
Etc?
Atb

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2021, 05:48:43 PM »
Of the MacKenzie ones, he did one at Duff House Royal, one at Erskine and a Gibraltar/Redan at Pollok.

Niall

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2021, 06:29:10 PM »

5th at Royal Melbourne West by Dr Mack’


I don't really see the 5th at RMW as an Eden type hole.  Did MacKenzie say it was, somewhere?




I have built a handful of Eden type holes in my life:


15th at High Pointe [Eden from elevated tee]
13th at Beechtree
 2nd at Old Macdonald
16th at Simapo Island China [240 yard version]
 3rd at Lido [just about to be grassed]


Question:  if this is such a popular tried-and-true concept, why are three of those holes NLE?  :D

Matthew Delahunty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2021, 09:36:49 PM »

5th at Royal Melbourne West by Dr Mack’


I don't really see the 5th at RMW as an Eden type hole.  Did MacKenzie say it was, somewhere?



Tom,


Mackenzie said RMW 5 was similar to the Eden hole but he never said it was a copy of the Eden hole.


Mackenzie's exact words (as contained in his article in the Herald newspaper in December 1926) were:

Hole 5. 170 yards (New) - Ideally situated, this should make not only one of the best holes in Australia but one of the best in existence. There are different ways of playing this hole, according to the varying situation of the flag, the strength and direction of the wind.  Somewhat similar to the famous Eden hole at St Andrews, it will never lose its charm.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2021, 10:38:59 PM »
One of the best Eden holes I've seen is the 5th hole at the Longue Vue Club near Pittsburgh, which is being used as the second course this week at the US Amateur.   Designed by Robert White, the course also features a daunting redan hole at the 3rd.
I don't consider the third at LV a redan at all, really. Or the fifth an Eden…?

https://www.longuevue.org/web/pages/hole-3
https://www.longuevue.org/web/pages/hole-5
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #37 on: August 05, 2021, 11:01:06 PM »
Just got back from Bandon and Old Macdonald with the second hole as the Eden hole. I was left flat as compared to St Andrews. The OM hole had a lot of room to go long whereas on the St Andrews Eden requires an incredibly precise shot that can neither be long or short. I think if you're going to miss at St Andrews, ok if it's left or right. Being the second hole at Bandon it seemed out of place in the round. It's number eleven at St Andrews and after some easier holes on eight, nine, and ten the Eden hole grabs you by the collar and says game on!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2021, 08:40:30 AM by Bill Gayne »

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2021, 11:26:37 PM »
The Gordon’s did an Eden on many of their courses. Had a survey of the original done for reference. Saucon Grace has an example.

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2021, 12:54:33 AM »

Yale #15 


Forsgate Banks #3

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2021, 02:20:35 AM »
Folks will get the chance to play a very good Eden at Cavendish...15. It's a bit shorter than most Edens but the green is very severe, moreso than TOC.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2021, 02:47:16 AM »
Folks will get the chance to play a very good Eden at Cavendish...15. It's a bit shorter than most Edens but the green is very severe, moreso than TOC.


Ciao


A little appetiser...


15 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2021, 11:08:58 AM »
One of the best Eden holes I've seen is the 5th hole at the Longue Vue Club near Pittsburgh, which is being used as the second course this week at the US Amateur.   Designed by Robert White, the course also features a daunting redan hole at the 3rd.
I don't consider the third at LV a redan at all, really. Or the fifth an Eden…?

https://www.longuevue.org/web/pages/hole-3
https://www.longuevue.org/web/pages/hole-5

Erik,

I don't know their source but we were told this by the Director of Golf at Longue Vue.   I can tell you that both holes on the ground have the playing characteristics of said templates.

Having been in the front right bunker of the 5th and trying to control a putt from the right edge of 3 to a left pin, I had no reason to doubt his assertion.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2021, 11:11:03 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2021, 02:00:08 PM »
Just got back from Bandon and Old Macdonald with the second hole as the Eden hole. I was left flat as compared to St Andrews. The OM hole had a lot of room to go long whereas on the St Andrews Eden requires an incredibly precise shot that can neither be long or short. I think if you're going to miss at St Andrews, ok if it's left or right but not short or long. Being the second hole at Bandon it seemed out of place in the round. It's number eleven at St Andrews and after some easier holes on eight, nine, and ten the Eden hole grabs you by the collar and says game on!


Actually I don't think there is any version of the Eden hole that compares favorably with the original.  But it had to go where it did at Old Mac, to get us to the site for the third tee!

Dave Duevel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Eden Holes
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2021, 02:06:36 PM »

Is either hole as good as the real thing?  Not even close.  But we have a course in planning right now where we plan to build an Eden-type hole and I think this time we will get it right.  (Sorry but I can't say where just yet.)



Tom, are you able to divulge on this 15 years later?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Eden Holes
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2021, 03:29:03 PM »

Is either hole as good as the real thing?  Not even close.  But we have a course in planning right now where we plan to build an Eden-type hole and I think this time we will get it right.  (Sorry but I can't say where just yet.)



Tom, are you able to divulge on this 15 years later?


In 2006, that would have been Old Macdonald, which hadn't been announced yet.  I had all the Macdonald experts working with me on it, and it still wasn't enough for Bill Gayne.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2021, 03:56:36 PM »
Just got back from Bandon and Old Macdonald with the second hole as the Eden hole. I was left flat as compared to St Andrews. The OM hole had a lot of room to go long whereas on the St Andrews Eden requires an incredibly precise shot that can neither be long or short. I think if you're going to miss at St Andrews, ok if it's left or right. Being the second hole at Bandon it seemed out of place in the round. It's number eleven at St Andrews and after some easier holes on eight, nine, and ten the Eden hole grabs you by the collar and says game on!


No caddie at Bandon will ever tell you long is better than short on this hole.  Over the green is one of the harder up and downs on property.  There are a couple of spots on the green where a little long is okay, but not many.  Not sure what hole you played, but it doesn’t sound like the one I see 3 to 4 times a week.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2021, 04:43:09 PM »
Sven,


I appreciate your thoughts and on the ground experience at OM but curious if you have played the original Eden in St. Andrews for comparison?


Bill




Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2021, 06:28:02 PM »
Partly the 13th feels disconnected because of the awkward walk back from the 12th green.  When we were there in April, we were speculating about which of The National's greens might be Perry Maxwell's work -- he did SOMETHING there in the 1930's -- and we noticed that the approach short and low left of today's 12th green felt like an old green site.  I wonder if Maxwell built the current green further back, which then requires the walk back?
But, Macdonald was the one who prescribed the forced carry off the tee on the 13th, on the grounds that someone should not get away with a topped shot running all the way up to the green, as can happen at St. Andrews.


Tom,
The location of #12 doesn't seem to have changed from 1930 forward.
http://golfcoursehistories.com/NGLAmulti.html
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Eden Holes
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2021, 11:52:51 PM »
Sven,


I appreciate your thoughts and on the ground experience at OM but curious if you have played the original Eden in St. Andrews for comparison?


Bill


I haven't, but does it really matter.  My response related to this portion of your statement which was specific to Old Mac - "The OM hole had a lot of room to go long..."

You don't want to be long at #2 at Old Mac, the only thing you'll find back there is double bogey.

Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross