[Thomas MacWood]

Kelly
I've found several mistakes and ommisions in Kroeger's book.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Tom, it might be helpful if you share your sources... That way, we can either further that line of discussion or go back to talking about the current course. I don't know what you know so I'll go with the only info I do have...

Something else I was impressed with was the maintenance... the fairways especially were in great nick... Also interesting to read question marks above over the rectangular tees... these are the norm for me and fit perfectly to my eye... But I realise plenty of Architects think that there is no place on a golf course for squares and rectangles...

[Thomas MacWood]

Ally
This is from a Golf magazine report from July of 1894: “Lahinch was discovered two years ago and has been visited by Tom Morris who pronounced it of the finest links in the United Kingdom. Morris and his daughter and granddaughter arrived at Lahinch on the afternoon of the 29th of May. He went over the links and offered suggestions on the lengthening of several holes, but on the whole making no radical changes to the links, which was originally projected by Captain AW Shaw and James McKenna.”

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks Tom.

Whilst not being definitive about the origin of Dell, that article certainly does seem to suggest that it may have been there when Old Tom Morris arrived.

[Rich Goodale]

This is from the Lahinch Golf Club website.

"One of the holes designed by Old Tom Morris is the present 5th Hole known as "The Dell," considered the most unique in Irish golf or anywhere else. It is a three par green surrounded by high bent grass hills. The other feature hole, the five par 4th Hole, known as "The Klondyke" is approached down a narrow valley. A formidable sandhill has to be carried giving a blind iron shot to the green. This was added in 1897 on the directions of the golfing legend.

The Old Tom Morris connection, coupled with the great love for the game of golf in the village, has led to Lahinch being referred to as the "St Andrews of Ireland.

Ref. Arthur J. Quinlan."

I'm not sure who Arthur J. Quinlan is, but I'll take him and the Club against some anonymous writer from "a Golf magazine," at least for now.  As I'm sure you know, Tom, articles in old golf magazines were rarely scholarly efforts and often wrong, much like today.  My understanding, too, is that OTM's changes were made over a period of time, up to 1897 (as the quote above implies), well after that article was written.

Maybe Melyn Morrow can chime in, as I think he has some more information about the trip of Old Tom, daughter and grand-daughter in 1894.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Actually, further looking at the history page on the website:

http://www.lahinchgolf.com/beginnings.html

There is definitely a wealth of referenced information suggesting Morris's input was significant...

[Thomas MacWood]

Rich
That same history book shows a map of the course in 1892 - two years prior to OTM - that clearly shows the Dell. Also according to that history, and their series of maps from different periods, the Klondyke was a result of Charles Gibson.

Ally
I've read the website and I don't see anything specific on OTM's contributions. Did I miss it?

The report in Golf magazine from 1894 would seem to contradict what the very general claim of OTM making significant alterations. It is not uncommon for clubs to latch on to the name of someone of OTM's stature.

[Garland Bayley]

Hey Michael,

I haven't looked at those for a while. When I asked on a thread if holes with troughs like at Astoria existed elsewhere, someone suggested #4 at Lahinch. Led me to discover that neat site.

[Rich Goodale]

What history book, Tom?

[Ally Mcintosh]

Maybe Tom.

"In 1894, at his own expense, Alexander Shaw invited the celebrated Scottish golfer, Old Tom Morris, to Lahinch to have a look at the course and suggest improvements. Tom Morris was deeply impressed by the natural golfing terrain and by the sandhills. In his construction of the new course he placed great emphasis on the Sandhills side of the Links. He said, when his proposed changes were implemented, Lahinch would be on a par with the five great Links courses of the United Kingdom."

Just as it appears the course was laid out by Shaw and Plummer (not McKenna)

"On 26th March 1892, Alexander W. Shaw and Richard J. Plummer, two prominent officials of the Limerick Golf Club, went to the West coast of Clare as a result of a casual rumour that, somewhere between Ennistymon and Miltown Malbay, there was suitable ground for a golf course. While travelling from Ennistymon they passed what was then a dreary desolate piece of land, a mass of sandhills. Struck with the possibility that the land was suitable for a golf course they stopped and made enquiries. The result was a second journey on 9th April when an eighteen-hole course was marked out. E. D. Hunt, a colleague from Limerick, accompanied A.W. Shaw and R.J. Plummer on their second visit. They were helped in the laying out of the course by some officers of the Black Watch Regiment who were stationed in Limerick at that time"

Seeing as this is taken from the Clare Journal of 11th April 1892, I have no reason to not trust it.

Also, with reference to McKenna and another to Old Tom:

"James McKenna came to Lahinch on 1st April 1893 and was employed as the first Professional. His wages were 18/- a week, 2/- a round for instruction and 1/6 to play a round. All members contributed financially to help retain his services. His arrival predated the coming of Old Tom Morris by over a year. It is clear that it was McKenna, between 1894 and 1899, who supervised the changes and improvements recommended by the great Scottish golfer"

[Thomas MacWood]

Rich
I have the Rev. Arthur J. Quinlan book. [I was mistken it was the book written by Enda Glynn]

Quinlan's [Glynn's] series of maps seem to contradict his claim the Dell was built by OTM and contradict your claim that OTM was responsible for the Klondyke.

Ally
What specifically did OTM suggest?

[Ally Mcintosh]

I don't know Tom.... Do you know what he didn't suggest?

Either way, it doesn't change the experience I just had. The golf course as it currently stands is fantastic.

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

It's not my claim but Quinlan's (see my post #30 above) that Morris designed  "Klondyke."  Why would such a talented scholar contradict himself twice?  Maybe the map is wrong or just misdated.  Tyops have been known to happen.

Excellent points, Ally.  We don't and probably never will know with 100% certainty what Morris suggested and what he did not.  And, as you imply, who cares when you are playing such a magnificent course.

[Thomas MacWood]

I don't know Tom.... Do you know what he didn't suggest?

Either way, it doesn't change the experience I just had. The golf course as it currently stands is fantastic.

Ally
Well according to the 1894 article he didn't suggest any significant changes to the golf course.

Here are some more interesting tid bits:

A February 1900 article in Golf Illustrated claimed the course “was laid out by James McKenna.”

From the Irish Times March 1897, P McCarthy, General Manager, Listowel and Ballybunion Railway said the links at Ballybunion were ‘quite first class and a sporting course, laid out by the professional who had laid out the links at Lahinch and Dollymount.’ The Irish golfers guide of 1897 names Ballybunion’s designer as James McKenna, who did this work ‘at the instance of the Lartigue Railway Company.’

From the Hermitage GC history: “Mr. James McKenna, then professional at Carrickmines Golf Club in south Co. Dublin was commissioned to construct the course. James McKenna came with excellent credentials as a well-known Golf Architect of the day having been involved in the lay-out and construction of such well known Clubs as Lahinch Golf Links, the Links at old Ballybunion and Waterville, Co. Kerry and later with the Killiney and Portmarnock Clubs.”

It would seem in recent times OTM's contribution has been greatly exaggerated and McKenna's virtually ignored.

[Rich Goodale]

Isn't this just like Merion, where Macdonald and Whigham designed the course and Hugh Wilson just "laid it out?"

[Thomas MacWood]

Rich
I thought I read in your article on OTM that Morris actually was responsible for Merion.

"Most of us know most of these already, but just listing the names of some of the most revered trips off the tongue so smoothly that I can't resist writing them together: 'Dornoch, Machrihanish, Elie, County Down, New Course, Portrush, Wallasey, Lahinch, Muirfield, Rosapenna, Nairn and Merion.'"

[Melvyn Morrow]

We talked about Lahinch and the article Tom MacWood is referring to in his reply a few weeks ago. As I said before you have to read the full article not just the selective parts.

‘Not Radical’ & ‘when it was altered as he directed’ are also part of that article from Golf July 3 1894.

As for the actual work undertake – of course it was Mckenna who supervised the modification, he was the club Professional and part of his duties – but he was not responsible for the design of these modifications – perhaps others at a LATER date.

I’m not going over this again with Tom MacWood, I will leave it up to each of you to make up your own mind.

[Steve Hyden]

Aaarrrgghh!!  I'm with a group playing the northwest in September - Carne Enniscrone, Rosse's Point, etc., and finishing at Doonbeg.  As soon as the itinerary  came out I asked, well begged actually, that we move things around so we could play Lahinch.  Nothing doing.  So I thought that since we're playing Doonbeg on Friday the 19th (and staying there), and my flight home is Saturday the 20th, I could play Lahinch Saturday morning and rush to the airport, or maybe play it late Friday.

I was told that to hire a car to/from Doonbeg and pony up the greens fee might cost me $500 US.  I know it's wonderful but...

Anybody out there care to comment on my logistical problem?  I did play Lahinch in 1990 and have dreamed of going back.

[Padraig Dooley]

Steve

Your best bet would be to try and play Lahinch on the Friday evening, Saturday morning is normally reserved for members.

As for getting from Doonbeg to Lahinch, it's not that long a drive, a taxi might be more economical. You should be able to do it for less then $500, green fee (I think) is about €145, approx $220 and maybe $80 for transport.

If you contact the guys in Doonbeg and tell them about your problem they'll be able to help.

[Padraig Dooley]

I'm not sure who Arthur J. Quinlan is

Arthur Quinlan was an Irish Times journalist based in the Mid-West, very well known in golfing circles, used to always report on the South of Ireland Championship. I think he was a Captain of Castletroy GC. As the Irish Times' man in the west he would have interviewed any VIP going through Shannon airport which would have included US Presidents and even Fidel Castro and Che Guevara (If my memory is correct).

 

[Tim MacEachern]

Is it just me, or doesn't anyone else see a problem with posting a whole series of photos that are clearly marked for copyright?

[Thomas MacWood]

We talked about Lahinch and the article Tom MacWood is referring to in his reply a few weeks ago. As I said before you have to read the full article not just the selective parts.

‘Not Radical’ & ‘when it was altered as he directed’ are also part of that article from Golf July 3 1894.

As for the actual work undertake – of course it was Mckenna who supervised the modification, he was the club Professional and part of his duties – but he was not responsible for the design of these modifications – perhaps others at a LATER date.

I’m not going over this again with Tom MacWood, I will leave it up to each of you to make up your own mind.

Melvyn
Here is the thread you're referring to. At that time you did not bring any documentation to the table. Have you discovered anything new?

On both of these threads you've brought nothing to refute the 1894 article - 'no radical changes' - except for an unusual reading of the article (that others apparently haven't agreed with).

Lenthening holes is not a radical changes but may require directing. I know OTM was fast but I find it hard to believe the course had undergone radical changes overnight. What exactly did OTM suggest?

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35017.0.html

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

You are doing your usual ’Selective Reading’ of articles to try and prove your point.

Lets look at the article again, noting it was an article and not a detailed report on the progress over the whole course – a general statement which reads as follows

“He at once proceeded to investigate the links and went over them very carefully, offering some suggestions to lengthening of several of the holes
and but on the whole make no radical changes to the course, which
was originally projected by the Captain, Mr A W Shaw and the club professional James Mckenna.”

So what can we take from that part of the article.
1 - Old Tom went over the course very carefully
2 - Offered some suggestions to lengthening of several holes
3 - But on the whole make no radical changes to the course

My understand of the above three points are clear: - Course inspection, initial suggestions nothing radically wrong with the course so no total redesign.

Drop a few more lines on the article and I give you another Quote

The following morning Tom Morris went over the whole course again with the captain and the professional, to make sure that when it was altered as he directed as much as possible would be made out of it.”

So what can we take from this part of the article.
5 - The following morning Tom Morris went over the whole course again
6 - To make sure that when it was altered as he directed as much
      as possible would be made out of it.”

My understanding of these two points is as follows: - Old Tom, Shaw & Mckenna re-inspected the course. To make sure that Old Tom’s ‘alterations
as he directed’ was fully clear and understood and that if that happened the course would be “much” improved.

First thing this article proves is that Old Tom modified Lahinch in 1894. You have in the passed stated he was not involved with Lahinch – I think what ever the work undertaken proves Old Tom had a hand in the design of Lahinch in 1894.

This article does not report on the discussion or what happened over night between Old Tom & Shaw and we do not have a clear understanding from this report of what exactly the following statement means “make sure that when it was altered as he directed as much as possible would be made out of it” but clearly the meaning would suggests that the course would be much improved. Just by lengthening several holes would not in my opinion make that type of difference and warrant that comment.

Lets be honest the article does not help and may seem to suggest more than lengthening, but does not say anything apart form “when it was altered as he directed”.

I am not going to speculate (you do enough of that for both of us), I am going to wait until I see more information, but Old Tom Morris hand was on Lahinch. The original design changed via his modification. Later reports of 7 to 10 years later may have known of Mckenna’s involvement in the construction (not the design of 1894) of the course and therefore reported accordingly, albeit years later.

I have never tried to prove anything apart from Old Tom was involved at Lahinch. I don't need to bring documents to the table to prove that as the Golf article clearly comfirms his visit and involvement. You want to minimise his involvement then I want to see more proof from you. The Club say he was involved, Golf confirms his involvement. We will have to wait and see if any new publication can give us any more information.

[Thomas MacWood]

Melvyn
Yours is a very odd reading. Do you believe the author of the article wrote it two pieces (and didn't read over it and edit as a single article)? That he wrote that there was no radical changes the first day and then got up the next mourning and wrote about OTM directing those who would be making radical changes (forgeting that the day before he said there were no radical changes)?

If thats not selective reading I don't know what is.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Youg got it wrong end of story

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