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Jonathan McCord

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English Turn - Zurich Classic
« on: April 30, 2006, 05:16:49 PM »
   As I am watching coverage of the Zurich Classic at English Turn in New Orleans, I have a couple of questions for some of those who have either been to the tournament or played the golf course.

Has the golf course always been primarily without trees, or is this a result of Katrinia?

It also seems like the architect, whoever it maybe, created some great angles with the bunkering?  If the course was firmer, it appears as though the angles presented by the bunkers would be even more effective.

TPC of Lousiana, English Turn or is there another course that could handle this tournament in the area?

Great to see New Orleans getting back on its feet!!
"Read it, Roll it, Hole it."

RJ_Daley

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Re:English Turn - Zurich Classic
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2006, 06:14:38 PM »
I don't know anything about the course.  I've watched it on TV and it doesn't appeal to me from what I see.  

Yet, the coverage has been very sympathetic to the whole situation down there by giving good coverage to the efforts to rebound the area.  So, that is all good.

But, one can't deny that little old Fred Funk can bring the folks to their feet as he puts on a great show.   ;) ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Michael_Stachowicz

Re:English Turn - Zurich Classic
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2006, 08:10:27 PM »
I did an internship down there about 15 years ago.  It is a Nicklaus design made like the Lido Club...with piped in river sand.  There were never any trees on it.  I have to admit, I remember the course much more fondly than what I saw on tv today.  

I remember it being extremely tough with the greens set at odd angles to encourage the mere mortals who play the course dry to come in from the correct side.  I also feel that the par 5 15th is one really cool par 5 that goes beyond the idea of an island green.

I saw Nicklaus speak at the national GCSAA show and he said the course has actually lost elevation over the years...some of the mounding lost 12 feet!

I hope this helps.

Jim Sweeney

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Re:English Turn - Zurich Classic
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2006, 08:44:24 PM »
Any reason given for the reduction of the mounding? Sinking, shaving, erosion, etc?

I have not played the course. I walked many of the holes, probably around 1988, 89, when it was brand new. Only a few homes on the course, near the clubhouse, at the time. I remember I thought it might be unplayable for average to high handicappers due to the tremendous number of water hazards and their placement. I saw it in February or March, on a  very cold and windy day, and remember thinking it would be miserable in the hot, humid summer with all the mosquitoes, ets.
"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

TEPaul

Re:English Turn - Zurich Classic
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2006, 06:50:35 AM »
Good points about the angles on that golf course---eg all kinds of angles, fairway lines, bunkering, green shapes etc. With all those angles juxtaposed to one another the course must be fairly thoughtful to play.

I think yesterday was just another great example of what happens with tour pros and scoring when you give them a pretty soft and receptive golf course and not much wind to deal with.

Maybe I was dreaming because I wasn't paying all that much attention to the course but it seemed to me that a good number of those greens were basically wide but shallow even if set at something of a diagonal.

There's no question this type of green set-up was pretty much a style Nicklaus liked to use early on in his career. Some accused him of doing it as a result of his own game (a high fade) but I'm wondering if Jack didn't pick some of that up from ANGC. There certainly are a few great greens at ANGC that are wide and shallow (even if there are some others that are narrow and deep).
« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 06:55:42 AM by TEPaul »

Michael_Stachowicz

Re:English Turn - Zurich Classic
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2006, 07:52:48 AM »
Jim, I am sorry I wasn't clear, they filled a swamp to build it by pumping in sand from the Mississippi...hence the reduction in elevation.  At least that is how the story goes.

I was also surprised by the amount of houses that have been built since I was last there...it looked like very inhospitable land at the time.

Tom, the course is very much set up for the fade game, and it is a fair criticism of the design.  The people who played it regularly at the time certainly noticed that.  The lagoon that surrounds the entire course is almost always on the left of the hole.

Chris Moore

Re:English Turn - Zurich Classic
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2006, 10:09:28 AM »
I live in New Orleans and have played English Turn a number of times.  I don't think it is a fair criticism to say that the course favors a high fade (I can't think of a hole I have ever played that wasn't playable with a high fade that is started along the proper line).  The shots and approach shots which ask the golfer to attempt to work the ball in both directions (1, 2, 5, 11, 15, are good examples of holes that suggest a drawn tee shot for the right-handed golfer; 17 and 18 both suggest a drawn approach shot).  What is important there is the ability to hit the ball high, which is not that much of a challenge for the pro.  For the good amateur, the course can be very difficult, since the angle of play is very important for those without world-class ball-striking technique.  Take No. 4 for an example of the importance of angles.  It is a 335-yard par-4.  An approach from the left side (safe) of the fairway yields a direct carry over water from a downslope to a green angled from right to left, with two distinct slopes running from back to front at about a 45 degree angle to the line of play.  From the right side of the fairway, the golfer has a better look at the front of the green, but has to contend more with the slopes in the green, which are at about a 70-80 degree angle from the line of play and create distance-management problems for the golfer that aren't present from the left side.

If I had to offer criticism, it woud be the lack of ground-game options (although there are places where this option is present).  But in this lush, wet environment here, it isn't parctical to build too much of that into a golf course.  

Mark Arata

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Re:English Turn - Zurich Classic
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2006, 02:37:29 PM »
I also live in New Orleans and have played the course a bunch of times.....it is totally defenseless to good players without wind, really only 16, 17 and 18 are of any challenge to a low handicapper. It is a nice course, it has some decent holes, but nothing that you would write home about. Tour pros should play this as a par 68, all the par 5's on the course can be reached with driver - mid iron, even into the wind. The only par 5 that would give anyone pause into the wind is 15, and I saw Fred Funk reach that in two with a hybrid yesterday......I played a round there with Bob May in the pro am one year and he hit driver- 6 iron to 3 feet in a light breeze.........

I have never found it to favor a draw or a fade in particular, there is a good mix of holes that bend to the left and right, but it does truly favor a long hitter, and a high ball hitter, for reasons that Steve said in the previous post.....

God how I wish Mr Doak or Coore and Crenshaw would redo City Park.....If English Turn is one of the top 5 courses in your area, then you need some more good golf courses!

New Orleans, proud to swim home...........

Greg Holland

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Re:English Turn - Zurich Classic
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2006, 03:04:28 PM »
In his book on golf course design, Jack actually talked about this course -- how they had to pump in the sand, designed it knowing that it would settle several feet, thereby softening the mounding over time, the enginnering involved, etc.  It was pretty interesting.

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