[David Kelly]

Evan,

You got me.  I have no idea how I would route the cart path on that particular hole.  But does that matter?  Are you using the tired old canard that we can't criticize architectural work unless we can do it better ourselves?

What I am doing is pointing out that Arthur Hills has a distinct pattern to how he routes the cart paths on his courses whether it is his idea, an associate's or if it was imposed on him by someone else.

[Ryan Farrow]

This is Exhibit A for the notion that the next breakthrough in gca will be finding better, more imaginative  ways to build and integrate cart paths.

They are the single biggest feature on a golf course. And no one knows what to do with them. The material they are made from and how they are placed haven't changed in 40 years. Surely someone has some new ideas.

(I'm not picking on Hills. His are not much worse than anyone else's.)

Bob

Our school has finished constructing walkways in the front of our campus that are a reddish claylike material. The project is not done yet so I have yet to step foot on them. If you were to match that kind of path with a course that has light red sand I think it could go a long ways to helping them match up with the rest of the course. I’m not sure what the material is but perhaps the color could be lightened to match a more regular bunker color. I also see the elimination of a 50 yard bounces off that kind of cart path.

[Evan Fleisher]

Art Hills...king of the "killer cross-over"...

[Jim Johnson]

Below is a photo of a golf course in western Canada, which shall remain nameless [not important in this discussion].



Notice the cart path on the left edge of the fairway, cutting in front of the fairway bunker on the left. Why does the path not go AROUND the bunker, over on the left edge of the photo?

My point is this...
Walkers walk. They don't need cart paths.
Riders ride. On the cart paths. They're prepared to walk from their cart [on the cart path] to their ball. They understand this concept when they pay their green fee and rent their power cart. Pretty simple.

So, why not make cart paths as unobtrusive as possible? Take them out of play as much as possible, wind them through trees on the fringes of the surrounding forests, around fairway bunkers, etc.

I don't understand why this is not a higher priority among course architects. From the sound of things, Fazio does list this as a priority.

JJ

[Jimbo]

Any thoughts as to WHY he constantly does this?

There has to be a good reason....

Hasn't there?

TH

I have one:  $$$$  Though I don't know his clientele.  What percentage of his courses of his are CCFAD's or resorts or simple daily fees? With lots of residential real-estate? Where keeping golf on the course during and after rain events are a priority, for example.  And placing path to set up your traverse to the next hole (and avoiding lots or wetlands that you've had to trade for golf space, maybe, to make the course work) make you want to get over to the other side quickly.

Or to save concrete $$.  

Also, walking doesn't make $$ sense for alot of courses.  

And how do Fazio cartpaths look from an aerial view?  As someone said hiding the crossovers is easy.  And before someone goes to the trouble of pointing out a path that is visible from eye level--these things happen due to a number of $$ reasons--that he did, it is easy to hide them.  So easy that any of us could do it.

What is the $$budget difference between a Hills and a Fazio course?

Also, if Mr. Hills were to have lunch with us, would we all be so glib to his face not knowing what the project parameters were at these courses whose cartpath have been ragged upon? How many courses does he have? What percentage for developers selling lots?  What percentage private with minimal housing? What percentage resort? Are the cross-fairway paths due to a routing restraint from the developers where to maximize housing the crossings net you lots?

I don't know the percentage of different types of courses he's done, or which type the holes pictured above are on, but to answer Mr. Huckaby's question, this is my thought:

That he gets hired again and again is likely because he delivers what the clients understand and want.

I'm not just not feeling any latitude for him here; these recent threads seem downright mean.  Maybe the developers need criticism for valuing lots more than the perennial budget buster of golf course operations.  I don't know much about him or his clients.  I think though that my $$ thought is correct.  I could be wrong.  No ones calling him dumb, lazy, or ignorant or anything like that, right???  Golf has to be sustainable.

[David Kelly]

I'm not just not feeling any latitude for him here; these recent threads seem downright mean.

So the good things we see in his work are all him and the bad things are someone else's fault?

I have a feeling that somehow he'll be able to carry on despite this "mean" criticism by a few guys on the Internet.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

It would appear there is an opportunity for an architect to invent the "double cross."

[Craig Sweet]

Brutal.

[JohnH]

In all fairness to Mr. Hills, Stonebridge in Ann Arbor has zero cart path fairway crossings, save for a couple crossing in front of the tee.

www.stonebridgegolfclub.net

[Tom Huckaby]

JImbo:

Thanks for the very cogent answer.  See, I too was taking at as you seem to have - my assumption being that there did indeed have to be a very good reason to do this in each case.  

TH

[Eric Franzen]

Please help out a Swedish guy...

What does CCFAD's stand for?

[Michael Moore]

It stands for

Can't Comprehend Favored Abbreviated Discourse

[Brian Noser]

I am curious on why they have to be hidden if they cross the fairway? I am more inclined to get mad if I hit the path that crosses that I can not see from one that I know is there. And as far as the ones at cross Creek o do not recall ever hitting one of those on the fly. Rolled across sure but I do not see how this is such a big deal.

[Tom Huckaby]

Re CCFAD:  I do like Michael Moore's version... but the more common one is
Country Club For a Day

Meaning high-end public courses that charge a lot of money, offer services and amenities and conditions like a country club.

TH

[Eric Franzen]

Thanks TH +Mayday Malone who kindly IM'd ...and Michael Moore  

A prime example of a European CCFAD would be Dundonald or Doonbeg.

Anyway, sorry for interupting the Hills/Cart path discussion.

[Bill_McBride]

The plan at Pensacola Country Club is concrete paths from green to tee, nothing along the fairways, which will be sand-based.  Does this only work on private courses with 30K rounds a year?

[Jimbo]

Michael Moore (or should we call you Morrissey?):  Do you like Cryptic Comments Avoid Full Disembowelment?

Bill McBride:  You are going to wish you had the $$ to go wall to wall paths 3 years from now.  30,000 member rounds.  Thats alot.  Especially if everyone takes their own cart.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Like many golfers in the United States where the summer days are almost Arctic in length, I often do not start golfing until the cool of the evening. Then in the half-light of the canyon, all existence fades to a being with my soul and memories and the sounds of Cross Creek and a 250 yard drive spalshing into one of it's meandering creeks, and the hope that a biride will rise. Eventually, all things merge into one, and a CART PATH runs through it.

The CART PATH was built by Arthur Hills and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs. I am haunted by Cart Paths..... (ruthlessly stolen from Norman Maclean's "A River Runs Through It.'

[Doug Sobieski]

30,000 member rounds.  Thats alot.  

Jimbo:

I never thought 30,000 rounds in at a year-round club would ever be considered busy!! Here in Ohio, that's a manageable amount at most of the family-type private clubs in our 7+ month season. When I worked in Orlando, I remember doing about 55,000 one year (63,000 total on all 27 holes)!!! We considered 4500+ players a month fairly normal

I guess it's all what you're used to  

Regards,

Doug

[Bill_McBride]

Jimbo, depending on the season we are 40% to 60% walkers, and we discourage singles in carts.  Not always successfully!  We also have a bunch of Sun Mtn 3-wheeler carts which make it possible to avoid carts in the hot / humid summer months down here.  At least for my wife....

[Steve_Lemmon]

My least favorite cart path experience - playing at a course where the lack of space causes them to hide the cart path but where it is too close to the fairway.   A drive 20 feet off the fairway hits the path and goes ob.  I almost prefer the pictured designs as they are more straightforward.  However, that is also why I joined a course with no cart paths - and no ob for that matter.  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I am with Tom on the Ocean course being a good solid course. Art knows that paths should be as out of sight and as out of mind as possible. However, he will lose that positive thought in a heart beat for some reason.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()