A acquaintance of mine asked me to post this.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Why did Sebonack choose to place some of their facilities/buildings along the NGLA property line, effectively creating permanent eyesores ?

Could they have been placed elsewhere on the property where they weren't intrusive to play/views at NGLA and Sebonack ?

Does a club have a duty, a gentleman's obligation not to devalue a neighboring golf course, if possible ?

I  haven't been to NGLA recently, hence I can't comment today.  But, my source is reliable.

[PThomas]

sounds like some of the summer parties out east might have some heated discussions this year Patrick!

[Peter Galea]

Does a club have a duty, a gentleman's obligation not to devalue a neighboring golf course, if possible ?

Yes, or at least provide a tasteful buffer zone.

[David_Tepper]

Patrick Mucci, Jr. -

I can think of only one GCA participant who could answer questions regarding the design & layout of the Sebonack property & facilities with any knowledge or authority. Perhaps your acquaintance should contact that person directly for an answer to his inquiry.

DT

[Chris Kane]

Have the facilities already been built?  If so, is there anything can be done about it (besides criticising them on an internet forum)?

[Tony Ristola]

Quote:
"Does a club have a duty, a gentleman's obligation not to devalue a neighboring golf course, if possible ?"
END

Yes.

[Jim Nugent]

Assuming for the moment they could have placed those buildings elsewhere, is there some bad blood between some of the people at Sebonack and NGLA?

[Ryan Farrow]

If it was done in spite, then surely it was a pathetic move. But we can not jump to conclusions without knowing all the facts.

[TEPaul]

"Does a club have a duty, a gentleman's obligation not to devalue a neighboring golf course, if possible?"

Patrick;

In America, probably like anywhere else, if some landowner is concerned about a piece of property next to him or in some proximity he's concerned about he better either buy the place or try to create some sort of easement with the landowner not to do something.

NGLA may've had 2-3 or perhaps more opportunities over the years to do something about their contiguous neighbor to the west, Bayberry (Sebonack G.C. now), and they never did.

I'll tell you one of the most notable examples of neighbors doing something deleterious to a neighboring property---it involved Lee Radziwill's house on the ocean in Easthampton one lot to the east of the 15th hole at Maidstone.

For years she had a beautiful unobstructed view to the west down the shoreline and across Maidstone golf course.

Then along comes some mega-buyer and buys the lot between her and Maidstone and constructs a massive wall between his house and her house (so he doesn't have to look at her house) thereby completely blocking her view to the west down the shore and across Maidstone.

Of course she sued him, and I believe the suit went on for years. I have no idea how the lawsuit ended up---all I know is the wall is still there.  

The moral of all this is if you want to control something next door to you the best policy is to just buy it.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

As you may know (but probably don't ) C.B.Macdonald had the opportunity to buy Bayberry when he bought the land that is NGLA. Most of the peninsula was available (for sale) to him (about 450 acres) and he chose not to buy Bayberry. If he had bought it back then he basically would've controlled the viewshed from NGLA of that entire peninsula, but he chose not to buy it.

In the late 1930s NGLA bascially threw Macdonald out of NGLA and when he died they fired his superintendent and gave him all Macdonald's NGLA material.

I'm sure NGLA could've worked something out with Charles Mackey's widow too when she sold Bayberry in the 1950s but the club chose not to do that too.

Later in the 1950s the club threw out all NGLA's historic architectural archives of the course.

The sins of our fathers, Patrick---The Sins of Our Fathers!  

Furthermore, if Mr Michael Pascucci comes along and pays close to $50 mil for Bayberry and probably pumps another $50 mil into it to make Sebonack G.C., if I belonged to NGLA and understood all the opportunities NGLA had to do something about Bayberry I think I'd be just fine if Mr Pascucci put his buildings anywhere the hell he wanted to on that property of his contiguous to NGLA.

To ease their concerns, NGLA should look at it this way---eg they've been quite fascinated for years by the distance view of the magnificent Shinnecock clubhouse to their south, and now they can learn to be quite fascinated by the remarkably near view of the soon to come magnificent Sebonack clubhouse immediately to their west.  

[Glenn Spencer]

I am very disappointed to hear that this is going on. I am very surprised by this, normally New Yorkers have a lot more sense than this. I would have thought that two great clubs would not be this petty, although the pettiness seems to be coming all from Sebonack.

[redanman]

normally New Yorkers have a lot more sense

As an aside, what New Yorkers are YOU talking about?

That's probably the most cutthroat city in the world, except for Zurich.

[David_Tepper]

Gentlemen -

So far, we do not know that there is anything of a deliberate, malicious, petty or "un-gentlemanly" nature going on.  All we have are the observations of one nameless person.

There may very well be legitimate, practical reasons why the buildings at Seboncack have been situated where they are. There may also be an effort made at some point to conceal those buildings with shrubbery & hedges. We know none of these things.

As I said in my prior post, there is only one participant on this board who can speak with any knowledge or authority on this matter. The rest of us are engaging in unfounded speculation and gossip.

DT    

[redanman]

Personally?

I was only commenting on the integrity of New Yorkers And Zurichen.

[A_Clay_Man]

Isn't this a mattter of personal preference?

Hel, If I have to accept the un-justified opinions of the masses, when it comes to whats aesthetically acceptible in the golf course architecture world, surely a bunch of out-flanked members can swallow a structure in their view.

[Brad Klein]

The fully built, 13,000 sq.ft. maintenance building/facility sits far to the right of the 3rd hole at NGLA. With heavy berming, fully leafed-out trees, understory shrubs and low profile color it will hardly be an eyesore. Given the sole access road to the Sebonack site and the stringent regulatory process, I doubt it could have been located elsewhere on site.

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat, If what Brad says is true, I'm surprised you would propogate such whining.

[Glenn Spencer]

Bill,

I spent half my life from 0-15 on Long Island and I found that if something was very important to New Yorkers, they would go to great lengths to take care of it. National is a great golf course and I would have thought the Sebonack members would have seen that and acted accordingly.

[Mike_Sweeney]

As I said in my prior post, there is only one participant on this board who can speak with any knowledge or authority on this matter. The rest of us are engaging in unfounded speculation and gossip.

David,

There are actually more than just Tom Doak, but I am not one of them. One thing is for sure, the Sebonack clubhouse will sit way above the National clubhouse due to the topography of the land. No schrubs or bushes are going to hide it. It will probably look cool from a boat on Peconic Bay!

If I was a member of National, I would be kicking ourselves/myself for not buying the land years ago when they had a chance, and I would probably be wishing the Sebonack clubhouse was in a different location.

Reality is it is part of a bigger problem. The Hamptons and East Coast beach towns are over developed, and there is no way to stop it. Local economy is driven by developers and second homes who need new houses (and clubhouses) to feed the kids, send them to schools.....

[Mike Benham]

Pat -

Did your acquaintance ask for your opinion?  If so, what was your answer?

If your acquaintance didn't ask for your opinion, what did you tell him/her anyway?

Mike

[TEPaul]

"Pat, If what Brad says is true, I'm surprised you would propogate such whining."

Adam:

My God man, get a grip on yourself. Remember, you're talking about Patrick Mucci.

Mike Benham:

Patrick Mucci is only capable of asking questions on here. He's completely incapable of providing answers to questions---including his own.  

[Dan Kelly]

Mr. Fitzgerald ...

Paging Mr. F. Scott Fitzgerald ....

[A_Clay_Man]

Mike Sweeney, I didn't think he was talking about Doak. The project manager for Sebonack is a member of this forum.

[David_Tepper]

Adam C. & Mike S. -

Yes, I was referring to Tom Doak. I was not aware that any members of his staff or participants in the Sebonack project were active on this board. My mistake.

Personally, I do not think that anyone affiliated with the Sebonack project is in any way obliged to address this matter on this board.

If the members of NGLA are not happy with any aspect of the Sebonack project, they should address their concerns directly to the powers that be at Sebonack. How Sebonack chooses to respond is their business.  It is certainly not ours.

DT

   

 

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Mike Sweeney-

thank god they didn't build the casino out there or else that whole entire area would have been ruined. Building is inevitable, but hopefully it will be limited to the 20 million dollar estates.