[Steve Lapper]

Matt, et.al.,


   Ths issue of US Am set-up vs. US Open set-up can be settled. I had the good fortune to play WFW the Monday after the 2004 US AM and having seen the set-up's there for past Opens and the PGA, I'll tell you they were near identical. Greenspeeds were close to 11-12, roughs were up to the most severe height I've ever seen and the fairways were as narrow as they ever get. I really can't imagine the USGA looking for more penal conditions than that which existed for the Am. For note, I've been fortunate enough to play Olympic post the 1985 Open and Bethpage 10 days pre-it's Open. They all are near brutal...and no less so for the US Am.

[Tom_Doak]

I have great respect for Winged Foot West.  It did get a 9 in The Confidential Guide, and I don't pass out 9's like candy.

I disagree with those who have hinted that the course is one-dimensional.  The greens are so tough that they make every other aspect of the game important, too.  If you don't drive it in the fairways, if you don't play good iron shots, if you aren't a magician around the greens, you'll pay for it because of the greens.  It is a championship test.

And yet, on that score, I find it a bit lacking because it is ONLY a championship test.  There are A LOT of other courses which would score higher on the "fun to play" meter -- including most of the other Open venues mentioned above.  They simply have more variety to them, partly because of the terrain, but partly because of design variety, too.  At Winged Foot West, every green except the 18th is roughly the same size and shape and bunkered on both sides.

[Mike_Sweeney]

The greens are so tough that they make every other aspect of the game important, too.  

I wonder if Mickelson or others would hire a local caddy to walk with "Bones" and their caddies during practice rounds before Open week. You can't learn those greens in a day or a week. Why wouldn't you throw $1000 to someone who has been there thirty years when you already have Smith and Pelz on the payroll?

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

I believe you may have missed my point.

Often times many of the so-called great courses are given extra points for the "wow" factor -- tied often to the quality of the land -- both internal to the course and the off-site elements that contribute to the time spent playing.

Winged Foot / West doesn't have the kind of land that often times can dominate the initial comments of people -- you get a better sense of how property can mold opinions by examing the grand scale of Bethpage Black when compared to the limited parksland site Winged Foot has. The same holds true to Pinehurst #2. Yet, if people take the time for closer inspection you can see exactly what you said in your comments on how the green demands at Winged Foot / West play such a large role in shaping all the shots that precede the player going all the way back to the tee.

Let me point out that Winged Foot / West is more than capable in being suitable for different types of players. The key rests upon THAT player to know their limits and play from the correct tees. Too many times I have heard the comments from higher handicaps that a course is unfair or simply one dimensional or only a championship type layout. Sadly that happens way too often because these same players FORCED themselves into a box by playing from an area where there is no way in hell they could possibly succeed.

Instead of candidly knowing their limitations -- you get this concocted excuse about the course being "limited" -- when in actually it is the player who is limited and at times unrealistic about their level of ability or lack thereof. To the credit of WF / West, and as you admitted, the course doesn't have a high tolerance for foolish plays and will react swiftly to such situations.

Tom -- I don't know how many times you have actually played or walked the West at Winged Foot but consider this:

*The West has been greatly improved through the removal of hundreds of trees -- especially those deadly evergreens which were allowed to grow to the point that any ball anywhere near their base meant either a limited pitch out or worse yet an unplayable -- the 1st and 9th were two of the main culprits but there were numerous other locations as well. The restoration, from just that perspective alone, has opened up playing angles previously not present. This has allowed the course to return more to its original intent than the bowling alley claustrophobic playing characteristic it had been for too long and in many ways caused the opinions of many players to believe the West was indeed limited.

*The putting surfaces are a bit more varied than simply pear shaped with bunkers pushed tight to their immediate flanks. If you study the 1st green you will see a green that appears to drop considerably from back to front but there are various swales and soft ledges that intrude in different sectors. The 2nd hole is tilted on distinct angle from left-to-right.

Some of the putting surfaces are very narrow -- witness the par-4 17th, to name just one -- while others are clearly unique in being very precise oriented such as the frontal tongue extension you see with the short par-4 6th.

Like I said before -- the role of par-5's is indeed one lacking area that I see with the West. Sad to say -- Tillie has done superb par-5's with other layouts but you don't see anywhere that level at the West.

Last point -- the charge given to Tillie was quite simple -- give US a man-sized layout. He gave THEM exactly what they sought. The West fulfills my sense of a great layout because it's examination is THAT thorough and more than likely the most complete player in all senses of the game will succeed.

[Anthony Butler]

And yet, on that score, I find it a bit lacking because it is ONLY a championship test.  There are A LOT of other courses which would score higher on the "fun to play" meter

A very good point. I have only played WFW twice, but both times the only golfer in our group over 10 h'cap was really struggling. If you can't get your bunker shots up quickly there's no escape from the sand. Having spent much time at NSWGC playing with guys in their 70's and a few of my mother's friends of similar vintage–and seeing their limitations from deep bunkers, I imagine the inability to create clubhead speed on recovery shorts to put height + spin on the ball would make for a long day out on the course for many folks at WFW.

Also, no carts...

[JESII]

He did give it a 9, Matt.

Seriously though, should be a very interesting week because the greens offer so much that the whole notion of "FLOGGING" should result in disaster, as you said earlier. The key to that though is firmness on the greens. If I see someone suck a ball back to the front pin on #2 (without Mother Nature to blame) I will be a bit disappointed.

What's the play on #6?

[Steve Lapper]

He did give it a 9, Matt.

Seriously though, should be a very interesting week because the greens offer so much that the whole notion of "FLOGGING" should result in disaster, as you said earlier. The key to that though is firmness on the greens. If I see someone suck a ball back to the front pin on #2 (without Mother Nature to blame) I will be a bit disappointed.
   


What's the play on #6?

JES,

   The play on #6 will be to take a long iron for most and lay it up down the left fairway side (likely using the left side fairway bunker as an aiming target). leaving a long wedge to the pin. Pin placement will probably see the flag on the back part of "L" more often than the front(moving right and left). A smart front leader will likely throw it into the middle left side (deepest portion of green) and take a putt for birdie and be thrilled with par....Any further "pin hunting" will see all kinds of blistering mistakes. The narrowness of that back "L" or "neck" is just way too severe to let the pros take dead aim. Anything deep is dead and anything short makes for a dicey sand save. An interesting note should be made that placement of this hole might catch a player off guard....coming off #4 & #5, the best chances for birdie on the front, and thinking that #7 might yield another will catch a few of these "deep thinking types" daydreaming!

I predict we'll see quite a few 2X's there!

[Matt_Ward]

JES II:

You're right Tom did give the West a 9 -- I only meant to highlight a few aspects that he may not have seen or personally witnessed since Confidential Guide came out. Clearly, the tree issue was initiated after the book came out. Also, the putting surfaces do have variation in terms of angle, pitch and movement.

I don't think you will see players backspinning the ball like they were at the Hope.

In reference to the 6th hole -- if memory serves -- several of the longest hitters in the US AM (e.g. Trip Kuhne, to name just one) hit driver and went over the side of the green.

The hole plays abuot 325 yards but here's the rub. If you go after the green the opening in the front is as wide as a Volkswagen Bug. If the pin is cut right in the very front where the tongue is thaaaat narrow you can't afford to miss hole high or beyond because you are then stuck with little or nothing work with -- in terms of green space.

The USGA has said that primary rough on #6 could be as high as 8 inches and that will likely throttle back plenty of players to leave themselves a full SW into the target.

Frankly, I don't see the 6th as being as great a short hole as say the 7th (when the pros play it) at Westchester CC or from previous Opens like the 7th at Lake at The Olympic Club. It's a good short hole and it will take away from players who are either too dumb or arrogant in how they play it from the tee.

The key is to do what Steve L suggested. You can make birdie with a solid wedge and kick-in putt. Forcing the issue with silly macho swings will onlt result in DB or worse.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:  We'll agree to disagree.  You place more emphasis on the "testing" aspects of golf; I place more on the "fun" and "esthetic" aspects.  No way it ever gets a 10 on the Doak scale.

FYI, I grew up about 20 miles from Winged Foot and I have walked the West course probably 20 times [including twice in the Open of '74], and I've played it 3-4 times.  I can even remember following Forrest Fezler for a few holes when he was a youngster, and he's glad I don't have a photo of the pants he was wearing [and I'm glad he doesn't have a photo of me at age thirteen!].  But it's been years, and I haven't seen much of the tree removal, although I can visualize it to some degree.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Fair enough -- we do agree to disagree. Although I do believe WF / West is fun to play but the definition of the word "fun" can be rather elusive and different.

Just a quick question since you mentioned the qualities of WF / West as a pure championship test. Would you list in order if possible those courses in America that are of the ilk you find with WF / West? To wit -- high quality championship layouts that provide the most exacting of tests.

Given what you mentioned I would think you would also include Bethpage Black on that short list.

Thanks ...

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:  If I thought I was the best player in the world, there are 10-15 courses in the USA where I would want to play so the pretenders would be found out.  In geographic order:

Brookline, Shinnecock, Bethpage, Winged Foot
Oakmont, Pinehurst No. 2, Kiawah, Augusta National
Oakland Hills, Butler National, Southern Hills
Riviera, PGA West

I'm sure I left out a couple because I did that much too quickly.  The Golf Club might be one; Stonewall is relentless for scratch golfers, but it's not long enough for Tour pros.  And Sebonack is going to be in there someday, too.  It's tough as nails from 1 through 18.

[PThomas]

a very interesting post , your last one Tom, thanks for sharing

one question Tom:  you gave it a 9 -  yet said most of the greens and green side bunkering are quite similar....I would have guessed that, that being the case, the course would not get that high of a score on your scale...

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

Interesting list -- solid choice in throwing forward the likes of Butler National. I would place Southern Hills a bit lower than the rest you've included.

Paul T:

It's easy to brand WF / West as a limited course that has only high appeal to the top tier golfers you will see playing in the US Open.

Frankly, WF / West has plenty of unique attributes that defy the quick tag line of this or that.

No doubt, Tom can answer the question you posed but from my many visits to the course and having observed all of the major events played there since the '74 US Open -- the West has greatly benefited from most of the recent improvements that have been implemented -- with just one or two minor dissents from my perspective.

Paul -- too much of golf course assessment comes from the visceral "wow" reaction that can be easily discerned. The greatness of Winged Foot / West is that architectural elements go beyond the simple eye-ball aspects. The richness and diversity in the green patterns is the heart of what makes WF / West so appealing. They are indeed varied and relentless in what they require.

No doubt it's not "fun" for a number of players -- the likely reason being that what they get away with at their respetive home course doesn't take place at Winged Foot / West.

I believe Tom's overall assessment is testament to the details you see within the West that the average person would simply miss at first glance.

[Anthony Butler]

Paul -- too much of golf course assessment comes from the visceral "wow" reaction that can be easily discerned. The greatness of Winged Foot / West is that architectural elements go beyond the simple eye-ball aspects. The richness and diversity in the green patterns is the heart of what makes WF / West so appealing. They are indeed varied and relentless in what they require.

In other words you have to play it to appreciate it. I would agree with that–the quality of WFW sneaks up on you during your first round there. Hopefully you are playing ok as your ability to appreciate the test diminishes if you are truly getting your butt kicked. i.e. If it takes you three to get out of a green side bunker, your first thought is not usually. "my what a well-placed and challenging hazard this is!"

P.S. Can't agree with Tom D's inclusion of TCC, too many novelty holes and dubious blind shots on the member's course, which is what you play when you get asked out for a round. The fact that practically every golf course in New England seems to contain at least one ridiculous downhill par 3 with a tiny green I attribute in part to The Country Club

[PThomas]

Tom:

Interesting list -- solid choice in throwing forward the likes of Butler National. I would place Southern Hills a bit lower than the rest you've included.

Paul T:

It's easy to brand WF / West as a limited course that has only high appeal to the top tier golfers you will see playing in the US Open.

Frankly, WF / West has plenty of unique attributes that defy the quick tag line of this or that.

No doubt, Tom can answer the question you posed but from my many visits to the course and having observed all of the major events played there since the '74 US Open -- the West has greatly benefited from most of the recent improvements that have been implemented -- with just one or two minor dissents from my perspective.

Paul -- too much of golf course assessment comes from the visceral "wow" reaction that can be easily discerned. The greatness of Winged Foot / West is that architectural elements go beyond the simple eye-ball aspects. The richness and diversity in the green patterns is the heart of what makes WF / West so appealing. They are indeed varied and relentless in what they require.

No doubt it's not "fun" for a number of players -- the likely reason being that what they get away with at their respetive home course doesn't take place at Winged Foot / West.

I believe Tom's overall assessment is testament to the details you see within the West that the average person would simply miss at first glance.

fair enough Matt...now I just gotta get my a_ s out east to see it!

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:  I was referring to the Composite Course at Brookline which is after all their "championship" course.  I agree the regular course is not so relentless.

Mike S:  The pictures I've seen of Kinloch do not make it look remotely as hard as those I listed.  The fairways are wider, the greens bigger, I doubt the greens have nearly as much slope, etc.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

Matt:  If the bermuda rough at Southern Hills was 3 inches when you played, you'd think again.  It can be a brutal test and the scorching heat doesn't help.  I don't think it's as GOOD as Winged Foot but I do think it's right up there in terms of difficulty.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom --

If both Southern Hills and Winged Foot / West dropped rough as a factor -- the Tillie creation winds hands down.

I've always believed that courses that overdose on rough are often weaker because they needed the added element to bolster their reputation.

I used to really admire what Augusta stood for because of that reasoning until the silly additions / changes the club opted to include in the most recent few years.

What's amazing is that Southern Hills played even better / tougher when the Tour Championship was played there in the fall months than during the height of the season when previous US Opens and PGA Championships have been played there.

[Anthony Butler]

Anthony:  I was referring to the Composite Course at Brookline which is after all their "championship" course.  I agree the regular course is not so relentless.

Yes they have 18 pretty sound holes out of 27, but peasants like myself don't get to play them in one round. The composite course is only open about 2 days a year to the members and when they host an amateur tournament or, god forbid, something like a USGA or Ryder Cup event. Shouldn't they should get marked down on your 'fun' meter just for that.

I get invited to TCC for member-guests and charity events, where the biggest thrill is realizing Hall of Famers like Dennis Eckersley and Ray Borque suck a lot worse at golf than I do. Cam Neeley looks pretty handy with a club though...

[John Kirk]

Mike S:  The pictures I've seen of Kinloch do not make it look remotely as hard as those I listed.  The fairways are wider, the greens bigger, I doubt the greens have nearly as much slope, etc.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

I agree with this.  I've played Kinloch a number of times, and it is challenging, but not brutally difficult.  With bent grass fairways and bluegrass rough, a great deal of sod work would be required to narrow the fairways.  Would it be as difficult as WF-W then?  Probably not.

The greens at Kinloch have less slope then Winged Foot, but they have A4 bent grass surfaces which can be very fast.  There's plenty of slope to make putting challenging, and you make an effort to stay below the hole.

I've only played Winged Foot once.  On that day, I didn't get to see what all the fuss was about the greens.  The greens were relatively slow, about 9 on the stimpmeter, and I must have hit it in positions where the putts weren't scary or hard to read.  I read the putts right all day long.  I think I three putted to a front pin on #3, which is very steep.  I'm guessing some players will hit short on purpose to get up and down there.

My problem appreciating Winged Foot has less to do with average course appreciation skills, and more to do with only one round's worth of data.  Also, I'm a sucker for the a great natural setting, and Winged Foot is a rather flat and undistinguished walk.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tom & John,

You are right about Kinloch. I was reminded today of some low rounds there via telephone. The day I played was 95 degrees and 95% humidity.  

I am told that in normal conditions very good players actually get rewarded with wider fairways in their landing areas.

[ForkaB]

Tom D

Any reason why you left Pebble Beach off that list of toughies?

It's the only Open venue I've played under Open conditions (a few days after the '82 event).  I hit my 2nd on the first to within 15 feet of the pin, but in the greenside rough and took 7.  It got lots harder after that.....

[Anthony Butler]

 I hit my 2nd on the first to within 15 feet of the pin, but in the greenside rough and took 7.  It got lots harder after that.....

Rich, just curious, can you remember the next five shots?

[ForkaB]

 I hit my 2nd on the first to within 15 feet of the pin, but in the greenside rough and took 7.  It got lots harder after that.....

Rich, just curious, can you remember the next five shots?

Not exactly, Anthony, but it was somehting like this:

3--tried a gentle swish with the sand wedge, but the club decelerated so rapidly in the rough that it barely caressed the ball
4--You guessed it!  Explosion shot which nearly broke my wrist.  The ball flew up vertically as planned, but just a smidgen hard, so it landed past the pin and then trundled along first gently, but then at some pace off the front of the green onto the fairway
5--not a bad chip to about 7 feet
6+7--two putts

[Anthony Butler]

Rich, just curious, can you remember the next five shots?

Not exactly, Anthony, but it was something like this:

3--tried a gentle swish with the sand wedge, but the club decelerated so rapidly in the rough that it barely caressed the ball
4--You guessed it!  Explosion shot which nearly broke my wrist.  The ball flew up vertically as planned, but just a smidgen hard, so it landed past the pin and then trundled along first gently, but then at some pace off the front of the green onto the fairway
5--not a bad chip to about 7 feet
6+7--two putts

Nice. Did it get worse... or just harder?

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

I disagree with those who have hinted that the course is one-dimensional.

I'd agree with you.
And, for those who think the land is uninteresting, I'd disagree, there's plenty of movement, especially on the back nine.[/color]

The greens are so tough that they make every other aspect of the game important, too.  If you don't drive it in the fairways, if you don't play good iron shots, if you aren't a magician around the greens, you'll pay for it because of the greens.  It is a championship test.

And yet, on that score, I find it a bit lacking because it is ONLY a championship test.  

This is where I disagree with you.
If you play the golf course from tees other then the tips, the course is quite interesting, and fun.

From the tips, it's a bear, a true championship golf course.
But, I can assure you that member play is from other sets of tees.  And, that from those tees, depending upon your ability, the course will provide interest, challenge and fun.[/color]

There are A LOT of other courses which would score higher on the "fun to play" meter -- including most of the other Open venues mentioned above.  They simply have more variety to them, partly because of the terrain, but partly because of design variety, too.  

WFW requires moving your ball off the tee, left to right and right to left.  There is a requirement for variety.[/color]

At Winged Foot West, every green except the 18th is roughly the same size and shape and bunkered on both sides.
In general, perhaps,  but # 6 certainly doesn't bear any resemblance to any other greens, and most of the greens are angled as the golfer approaches them.

One of WFW's strengths is the difficulty in recovery from the wrong side.[/color]

Steve Lapper,

If the hole on # 6 is to the right, behind the bunker, I wouldn't be surprised if many play a tee shot that rolls the drive into the bunker.

I think I'd prefer to play a bunker shot from the front bunker then a wedge approach from 40-100 yards out.

If the hole is in the front leg, I think they'll try to roll it on the green or lay back 40 yards.

It should be interesting to watch.

I think hole # 15 will hold up well.
I'll include # 10 and # 8.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()