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Jordan Wall

William Flynn on courses right about now...
« on: March 24, 2006, 09:55:03 PM »
From Grounds For Golf, by Geoff Shackleford, a great book if I must say.

From 1927...

"All architects will be a lot more comfortable when the powers that be in golf finally solve the ball problem.  A great deal of experimentation is now going on and it is to be hoped that before long a solution will be found to control the distance of the elusive pill.   If, as in the past, the distance to be gotten with the ball continues to increase, it will be necessary to go to 7,500 and even 8,000-yard courses..."

Any comments or opinions about this quote, which I found very fascinating due to our recent discusions...?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 01:25:05 AM by Jordan Wall »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:William Flynn on courses right about now...
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2006, 07:28:57 AM »
Jordan,
If you study the golden age architects of that time, you will find many of them who like Flynn, were very concerned about the distance that golf ball was traveling and what it would eventually do to the game.  But let's not forget what helped spark many of the golden age courses.  Part of it had to do with a new ball that was traveling too far.

wsmorrison

Re:William Flynn on courses right about now...
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2006, 07:34:28 AM »
While a number classic era golf architects wrote about their concerns, how many designed elasticity into their courses to account for future technology?  MacKenzie, Flynn, maybe Tillinghast.  Any others?  I don't think Ross did and that is why some of his courses were being changed, sometimes within a decade of their construction.  Is there evidence that Macdonald, Raynor or Banks did?  What about other golden oldies?

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:William Flynn on courses right about now...
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2006, 08:06:52 AM »
Wayne,
Wasn't elasticity mostly a function of the architect having the available land to eventually move the tees back?  Take a look at the original lengths of many of the older courses and that will tell you which architects had that luxury and which ones didn't.  

What was Merion's original length?  If one course should have had elasticity built into it, you would have thought it would have been that one right?  Now many of the new back tees look forced and goofy and are shoehorned in all over the place.  This is because they just don't have the land.  Maybe in the original plans there was never a real concern about having to lengthen the course in the future?  

Somewhere I have a list of original yardages for many of the older golf courses.  It is amazing how many were able to be lengthened.  I know Lehigh would love to get some more yardage on some of the holes but we just don't have the real estate to do too much.    
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 08:08:11 AM by Mark_Fine »

wsmorrison

Re:William Flynn on courses right about now...
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2006, 08:28:27 AM »
Not all courses were built with budgets, land space or memberships that were interested in championship standards for their golf courses.  These sort of courses wouldn't require elasticity and in some cases due to the land constraints couldn't have it.  So no, I don't think it was mostly a function of land availability although I think it an important factor.  I can think of Flynn courses without elasticity but who knows if it is because the land was not available in the first place or less land acquired because they didn't want to or couldn't spend the money for the additional land.

Merion is a unique case.  That was all the land they could get and the constraints dictated the routing.  Yet even so, there was some elasticity on many holes.  The course opened at 6420 yards and now plays (granted stretched nearly to the max) at around 6950 yards.

However, looking at the routing plans for so many of Flynn's courses, you can see the elasticity was carefully planned into many courses such as Boca Raton, Mill Road Farm, Shinnecock Hills, Philadelphia Country Club, Huntingdon Valley (especially C-9) and other championship venues had lengthening well-planned for.

Lehigh owns a lot more ground than was taken up by the golf course.  I guess they could've routed a different course on the property to take into account for future lengthening.  They did not.  What sort of membership desires did the club have for Lehigh?  Did they want it to be a real championship test?  I'm sure it was in its day.  But if they wanted one with elasticity to better stand the test of time, it could probably have been delivered on the grounds the club owns.


TEPaul

Re:William Flynn on courses right about now...
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2006, 08:59:56 AM »
"Is there evidence that Macdonald, Raynor or Banks did?  What about other golden oldies?"

Actually, Macdonald's take on the "distance problem" created by the onset of the Haskell ball compared to its precusor, the guttie, is pretty interesting.

Macdonald was apparently not much concerned about increased distance in the sense of making the game easier and he even convened his own "distance test" very early on at NGLA with a number of the day's best players taking part in the "distance test".

Macdonald seemed to conclude that any distance problem created by the Haskell was inconclusive.

But that's not the most interesting thing about Macdonald's position on rules and regs and controls on balls and equipment. He didn't exactly believe in it. He did not believe at all in the idea of "standardization" in golf's I&B.

But why? Apparently because Macdonald really was imbued with the old fashioned "spirit" of the game of golf, the thing he sometimes referred to as the '"Spirit" of the game of St Andrews.'

This "Spirit" he referred to included a number of things that would seemingly appear foreign to us today.

First, the "spirit" involved the playing rules of the game. The idea was golf was between gentleman (no matter their station in life) and it was in no way at all appropriate that a player take advantage of his opponent through some arbitrarily applied use of the actual playing Rules. The idea was to beat the best one's opponent could throw at you without the operation of some penalty not called by one's opponent on himself. So, even the calling of a penalty on a golfer was supposed to logically come from the player himself, against himself, and not necessarily from his opponent. Those things were what the origins of honesty, gentlemanliness and sportsmanship in the old game, we've heard about, was all about. The was the essence of what Macdonald referred to as the "spirit" (of the game of St Andrews). He even mentioned that some players didn't even know the actual Rules all that well, but they did understand that "spirit."

But how the "spirit" effected some thinking clubs and balls (I&B) and standardized control on them  is even more interesting to consider today, and it's also where C.B. Macdonald was coming from which may seem contradictory today to "purity" in the game.

The idea with clubs and balls was that pretty much anything at all could be available to a golfer but it was up to him as a "sportsman" to basically adjust what he used down to some limit that would just sustain his skill.

In a sense, this was of no real difference than what a fisherman was supposed to do if he was a true sportsman. The idea was to adjust his implements down to the point where his rod and line (test) could just sustaind his contest against the fish.

And so Macdonald believed that it was OK to use whatever clubs one wished, even as many clubs as one wished and whatever ball one wished. He did not believe in the idea of "standardization" of clubs or balls. In his mind it was unnecessary to the concept of the "spirit" of the game and the concept of the gentleman "sportsman".
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 09:07:07 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:William Flynn on courses right about now...
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2006, 09:11:47 AM »
To develop and explain this old fashioned "spirit" a little more and what it actually meant and how it began to evolve eventually into what we have today, Max Behr did not really believe in "standardization" in I&B either, even including the ball. But eventually Behr did make an exception. He proposed that the only "standardization" for a ball in golf should only involve "COMPETITION", and that it was just fine if the rest used whatever they wanted to.  ;)

Does this sound like a proposal for a limited distance "competition" ball?

You bet it does.

And it also involves something of a cautionary tale for us today. This "standardized" ball was legistated in the early 1930s. It was known as a "balloon" ball or sometimes a "floater" (because of its reduced weight).

Unfortunately it was so unpopular that the regulartory agencies were forced to abandon its "standardization".   ;)
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 09:15:49 AM by TEPaul »

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:William Flynn on courses right about now...
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2006, 09:35:44 AM »
From Geoff Shackelford's website: Today's quote from Pete Dye

My feeling is that the USGA and the R&A someday are going to have to separate the amateur player and the professional. They do that in other sports like baseball, Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire, they play in these great stadiums but if they had aluminum bats every stadium would be obsolete.  PETE DYE

Obviously, this quote was made before Booby Bonds  ;D and the steroid scandals of today but it still rings true IMO.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

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