Awful or Artful: Cart path in a "road hole"

[Doug Siebert]

Sometimes one's brain works in a funny way, and for some reason I had a dream last night where my home course was rebuilt NGLA style to copy some of the great classic holes, but the "road" in the Road Hole was a cart path instead of a real road.

I thought about it today, am wondering if that's really as awful as it seems on first glance.  If you think about it from the perspective of liability, where it would be impossible to have a public road or walkway right next to a green, let alone considered to be in bounds and in play on a new design, would using a cartpath in this way be the next best option?  By bringing the cartpath in as an integral part of the design, you make it less of a misfeature that's an ugly necessity, at least for one hole.

Am I just nuts or does anyone else think this could actually work, if it was done right by the right architect?  Has this actually been attempted?

I wonder what the response of average golfers would be if there was a local rule that says "on #17, there is no free relief from the cart path, the ball must be played as it lies".

[Tim Pitner]

Doug,

I don't have a reply to your question (sorry), but I believe your homecourse is Finkbine and as this was my home course during college, I feel compelled to give a shout out to Finkbine--what an enjoyable course to play, if not perhaps the most interesting architecturally.  Have you ever analyzed Finkbine for GCA?

[jeffwarne]

The original paved racetrack at The Bridge is played as is-no relief.

It has made for some interesting shots

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Doug,
The road is good old fashion Scottish quirk. A cartpath, well to me it's nothing more then a chunk of concrete that is unsightly and in the way.

The late Desmond Muirhead likened the buildings, R & A Clubhouse, railway andthe city and other infrastructure (such as the road) as actually being part of the Old Course in general. He felt they were synonmous--one. They evolved with the course and were as much a part of it as the very fairways where golf was formulated. He hated, and I can't emphasize that word enough, hated the new Old Course Hotel, and felt that it had no place in that evolution.

I couldn't have agreed with him more!

[TEPaul]

TommyN:

I agree completely with that post of yours. Things like the road of the Road Hole was simply part of the evolution of golf and isn't something that should be mimiced with a cart path, at least in my opinion. If you think about it the cart itself in golf is probably one of golf evolution's biggest abominations. I just can't imagine what some of those old guys would think if they could actually see all their courses today with little motorized carts racing around on little roads on them. I'm pretty sure Tillie would puke---even if he didn't hava a terrible hangover.

[Bill_McBride]

There's a cart path directly behind a green at the Lake course at Olympic that is in play much like the road at #17 TOC.  It's cleverly concealed by a very gentle berm, but it could definitely be in play.

[mike_beene]

There is a course north of Dallas called the Tribute which has some good replica holes.It is a cart course.Guess what they do with the cartpath on the road hole.

[Doug Siebert]

Bill,

Is that cartpath at Olympic Lake actually in play as far as removing the normal option under the rules for relief?  Its one thing to have a path close to the green, its another to force players to play off it.


Tommy N,

While I am not going to criticize your logic, I will point out the cartpath doesn't have to be concrete.  It could an asphalt aggregate like the road at TOC, or crushed stones like the footpath there.  Obviously if one was going to do this they'd (hopefully) do better than boring gray concrete!  If nothing else, the lack of friction on standard concrete makes it difficult for the ball to stay on it, so 99% of the time one's ball ends up either against the rough on the edge of the path or in a stress relief groove.  Not really going to play like it does at TOC under such conditions!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug,

The dilema is two fold.

The legal climate in the US and the CREATION of a dangerous situation.

If you placed a cart path behind the green on a long hole you create a disaster waiting to happen.  It wouldn't be a matter of "IF" it would be a matter of "WHEN", and "HOW OFTEN ?"

Incoming shots would be low and fast just when golfers were getting back into their carts.  It wouldn't be long before a golfer was hit by a direct shot or one that bounced off the cart path.

Also remember that there's a wall behind the road that deflects long shots back into play, or, at least keeps them from going O.B. or too far astray.

Bringing golfers directly into the intended line of play isn't prudent today, and placing a cart path directly behind the green would result in someone or many people being injured, some seriously.

CBM got it right when he created a deep bunker that accentuated the need to hit the green or play up just short of the green.

His "Road" green and surrounds are brilliant, from any angle.
It is perhaps one of most ideal greens and green surrounds in all of golf.

If a club had ample room, the creation of a non-functioning road and a wall would be a good idea, but, to bring golfers in close proximity and directly into the line of fire, isn't a good idea.

[TEPaul]

"CBM got it right when he created a deep bunker that accentuated the need to hit the green or play up just short of the green."

Patrick:

It surprises me you say that about the Road Hole at NGLA. Since you're so into moving roads and gates and such at NGLA I'd have at least thought you would've been into running a cart path behind NGLA's Road Hole green instead of that poor architectural mimic of a sand bunker Macdonald put back there.

Do you think maybe you should recommend that every hole out there also include huge longitudinal bunkers to catch long hitters?

[Bill_McBride]

Doug, I can't think of another hard paved road, cart path, etc, that is "in play" as it is at the Road Hole!  

So you're right, the cart path there is not in play, just pretty tight behind the green - #8 or #9 I think.

[TEPaul]

Bill:

I can. Maybe not quite to the extent of the Road Hole but the 17th at Maidstone has a road to the right and behind the green that sure does come into play. One time I decided to walk it off and the road on the right of Maidstone's 17th is a mere 6-7 paces from the edge of the green surface itself. There's no question at all in my mind that more windows and such of Mercedes, BMWs, Ferraris, Rolls Royces and such have been taken out on that hole than any in the world.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, I meant "in play" as in, no relief.  There are millions of roads in play, as in your ball might bounce off it into disaster, all over the world, mostly cart paths.  But the distinction is I can't think of another that you have to play off without relief.

You're right about #17 Maidstone, the photos I've seen are downright scary!

[Patrick_Mucci]

"CBM got it right when he created a deep bunker that accentuated the need to hit the green or play up just short of the green."

Patrick:

It surprises me you say that about the Road Hole at NGLA.

Since you're so into moving roads and gates and such at NGLA I'd have at least thought you would've been into running a cart path behind NGLA's Road Hole green instead of that poor architectural mimic of a sand bunker Macdonald put back there.

Since the gates and road weren't part of the original design, and were added subsequently, moving them 50 yards north is a prudent suggestion, as it allows you to add the needed length without compromising the angles of attack, which in turn returns the left side bunker back into play.[/color]

Do you think maybe you should recommend that every hole out there also include huge longitudinal bunkers to catch long hitters?

I don't need to do that because CBM already thought of that and incorporated them into his design.

The feature is in use on # 2, # 3, # 5, # 7, # 8, # 9, # 12,
# 14, # 15 and # 17.

I'm surprised that you weren't aware of that.[/color]

[TEPaul]

Bill:

Good point about the road being in play. If you hit it onto the road (over the very close rail fence) at the 17th Maidstone you are OB.

[TEPaul]

"Since the gates and road weren't part of the original design, and were added subsequently, moving them 50 yards north is a prudent suggestion, as it allows you to add the needed length without compromising the angles of attack, which in turn returns the left side bunker back into play."

Patrick:

I see--not part of the original design, huh?

Then why don't you suggest abolishing the road to NGLA altogether so the Cape Hole can be restored out into the water? Why don't you suggest tearing down the clubhouse too and rebuilding the old Shinnecock Inn? That's the way it was originally. Why don't you suggest flipping the nines since that was the way it was with the original design?

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Since the gates and road weren't part of the original design, and were added subsequently, moving them 50 yards north is a prudent suggestion, as it allows you to add the needed length without compromising the angles of attack, which in turn returns the left side bunker back into play."

Patrick:

I see--not part of the original design, huh?

Then why don't you suggest abolishing the road to NGLA altogether so the Cape Hole can be restored out into the water?

For the very simple reason that the permiting agencies would never allow it.  It's an environmental NO-NO.

Atlantic Golf Club in nearby Bridgehampton wasn't permited to come within 200 feet or yards of the water.  I suspect that NGLA would face a similar dictate.

Why don't you suggest tearing down the clubhouse too and rebuilding the old Shinnecock Inn?

The Shinnecock Inn was NEVER a part of NGLA.
NGLA never owned the Inn, nor was the Inn on NGLA propery.

The cost to move the gates and road is minimal.

Your suggestion is neither practical nor inexpensive, plus, the current site for the clubhouse is ideal, although, with it's new neighbor, I'm sure CBM is spinning in his grave at about 5,000 rpm's.

That's the way it was originally.

That's not  true.
The Shinnecock Inn was a temporary convenience and nothing more.
It was never intended to be the permanent clubhouse.


Why don't you suggest flipping the nines since that was the way it was with the original design?

No, it was only that way on a temporary basis, due to the convenience of the Shinnecock Inn and its temporary use.

NGLA didn't own the land behind the current 9th green that extends to Route 27.  The club only acquired that land in recent times.  Hence, no clubhouse could be built on that site.

Moving the gates 50 feet or 50 yards to the north is a rock solid idea only resisted by cretins usually seen riding in the back of pick-up trucks around the perimeter dunes at Sand Hills.

These are the same individuals who leave the lights on in their room and then leave the doors open, inviting virtually every insect and critter in Nebraska to spend the night for them.

Only individuals who smoke four packs of cigarettes per hour are capable of clearing out the room prior to lights out.

Unfortunately, room mates must breath through SCUBA gear for the night in order to survive the fumes.

Ran still coughs whenever anyone mentions the words, bugs, doors, open or lights.

[Richard Phinney]

Tom, I meant "in play" as in, no relief.  There are millions of roads in play, as in your ball might bounce off it into disaster, all over the world, mostly cart paths.  But the distinction is I can't think of another that you have to play off without relief.

You're right about #17 Maidstone, the photos I've seen are downright scary!

The tarmac road behind the 18th green at Montrose is "an integral part of the course" and NOT an immovable obstruction. And it's only a few feet over the green.

[Doug Siebert]

But is it a cart path?  Given TOC's example, I have no problem believing some older courses used an existing road as an integral part of the course that offered one no relief.  But if it was done with a road that was added some years after the course, or with a "road" designed and built as a cart path and for no other purpose, then I'd be surprised.

[ForkaB]

Patrick

The bunker behind the "Road" hole at NGLA doesn't even come close to embodying the effect that the real road behind the 17th at the Old Course has on the player.  A cart parth there would be much more faithful to the concept.  'Tis a pity that old CB "bottled" this one.......

[BCrosby]

I'm with Rich.

A bunker behind a "Road" green isn't a road. Or a wall. Without those physical features, the MacD/Raynor "Road" is barely kissin' cousins with the real thing.

A cartpath would be an interesting substitue for the Road. You are still missing the wall, but it's better than a bunker.

(I don't get the liability concerns. Any time the carts are parked behind the green, players will be on the green.)

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick

The bunker behind the "Road" hole at NGLA doesn't even come close to embodying the effect that the real road behind the 17th at the Old Course has on the player.  A cart parth there would be much more faithful to the concept.  'Tis a pity that old CB "bottled" this one.......

Rich,

I've thought about that, but, the configuration of the green at NGLA, including its angle to approaching shots differs from that of the "Road" hole.   In addition, how many golfers hit their approaches on long par 4's (or any par 4) over the green ?  One has to wonder, with what frequency does a feature beyond a green come into play, visually, psychologically and physically.

Is it possible that old CBM improved upon the features and playability at the green end ?

[ForkaB]

Pat

Everything is possible, but the greatness of the (original) Road Hole green complex is because both the front and the back of the green are so well guarded and play so much on the minds of the players.  CBM's doesn't, IMHOBOLE.

PS--Ask Tom Watson about hitting over the green onto the road, next time you see him.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

The front of the 7th green at NGLA is extremely narrow, slightly elevated from the fronting fairway with the deep pit behind it.

In the center section, The "Road" hole bunker on # 7 is probably more difficult than it's counterpart at TOC.

I don't know that either green is well protected at the back end.

A PGA Touring Pro is light years from the golfers who play TOC and NGLA day in and day out, and a Pro of Watson's ability was far ahead of the pack ot PGA Tour Pros pursuing him in his quest for Open titles.