[Jordan Wall]

...why Washington has very little highly ranked and great courses, at least compared to many other states.

WA has beautiful land, with lots of native trees and beautiful mountains to serve as backdrops.  But there just really arent a lot of spectacular courses in WA.  Recently Tom Doak designed a new course at the new Suncadia Resort, Tumble Creek, and Tom Fazio did Aldarra.  In WA there is also Sahalee, but really not too much more then that.  We have lots of good public tracks, but nothing I would really consider great.

With all the beautiful land, and even by the ocean, why arent more great courses coming out of Washington??

[mike_malone]

 Bill Gates must not be a golfer.

[Jordan Wall]

Bill Gates must not be a golfer.

Maybe not a good[/color] golfer...

...but he is a member at Augusta...

[Jason Mandel]

i thought gates was denied membership to augusta, i could be wrong though.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Bill Gates IS a member of ANGC via Warren Buffet's intro. He is also a founding member of Stone Eagle.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Yes Bill Gates originally was rebuffed by Augusta but eventually was allowed to join. Bill belongs to several clubs in the Seattle area also.

Jordan I don't know why Washington lacks the great courses, but it may have to with the type of soil found there. Most of the great courses have sandy soils ala Bandon, Sand Hills, etc.  Its only recently that the really big names have started building courses in WA so it may just be a matter of time. Meanwhile there are lots of relatively inexpensive good golf courses so enjoy.

[Kyle Harris]

Jordan,

For the most part, Seattle is roughly 50 years old. Before that, where was the financial relevance?

Golf tends to follow one of three things: money, railroads and sandy hills.

Washington State hasn't had many of them for that long.

[redanman]

Jordan

I always wondered that when I first started going to WA.

My explanation?

-near the population centers:

Too wet & soggy for good turf
Trees grow like weeds adding a lot of expense to the cost of any course.

Possibly, possibly?  It's not a high priority for the people that migrate and/or live there.

[Ted Kramer]

Money is never far behind good grapes.
The money will be there soon enough . . .

-Ted

[A_Clay_Man]

I thought Harbough's Gold Mountain was an above average effort. But as Dr. Bill has touched on, the maintenace meld of these courses is likely improper. Covering the ground with lushuos rough, in that area of the world, is just masochistic. Even the great Astoria had ridiculously long grass off the fairways. It seemed a wasteful use of unique dunesland.

[Tony Ristola]

Craig, you've hit part of it.

The coastal part of PNW is filled with awful soils.
Glacial till; a mix of silt, clay, sand (usually found in pockets), stones/gravel, which turns into slop in the winter.

You can find seams of pure gravel, but I haven't seen anyone develop a property like that for golf.

The rainfall is a major design factor to be considered, as the courses are played 12 months. For those who haven't lived in the region, it's difficult to imagine the amount of rain the coastal PNW receives; plus the micro climates are interesting; one area will get loads of rain, while another, 5 to 15km away will be a desert by comparison.

If you're near the mountains, the views are stunning on a clear winter, early spring day.

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Tony you are correct that Western Washington has some glacial till, most of it drains very well.  Southern Puget Sound has some particularly nice areas of good draining soils.  Certainly no worse than some of the heavy soils of the East

Some of the history here is fast and loose.  Seattle only fifty years old?  The terminus of the Northern Pacific Railroad was Tacoma.  James J. Hill certainly had a railroad here longer than 50 years ago.  

Financial relevance was certainly important during the Alaska gold rush of the 1890's.  A long history of shipbuilding and a large U.S. military presence insured large cash flows into the area in the early 20th century.  Shipping, logging, mining and agriculture certainly didn't make the State of Washington poor.

Great U.S. companines founded in Washington:  United Air, Boeing, United Parcel Service, Weyerhauser, Amazon, Microsoft, Starbucks, and Russell

Tacoma Country and golf club claims to be the oldest private club west of the Mississippi. (1894)

And I agree that most of the architecture is damned disappointing.  One reason is sheer distance, we are a long way from nowhere.  Another is the variety of distractions simply made golf less important.  Our architecture was that of Chandler Egan and Vernon Macan.  And finally, the east coast bias has always neglected and ignored this far outpost of the United States.  The history is just over 100 years but the the reasons for a weakness in golf is more complicated than just that.

[Tony Ristola]

W.H.

Most of my experience has been north of Puget Sound, up towards and into BC. Should have been more specific.

Did play a tournament at Fircrest 20 years ago in the spring and it was raining, and I do remember we weren't slopping around too much. I remember enjoying the course.

[Jordan Wall]

With what was created at Bandon, why cant the coast of Washington provide any great courses?

Obviously they dont have the dunes that Bandon has, but isnt it true that Washington could surely host some great ocean courses??

Bandon was nowhere at first, now it is like the golf mecca.  Maybe Washington is nowhere now, but I dont see why that cant change...

[Kyle Harris]

With what was created at Bandon, why cant the coast of Washington provide any great courses?

Obviously they dont have the dunes that Bandon has, but isnt it true that Washington could surely host some great ocean courses??

Bandon was nowhere at first, now it is like the golf mecca.  Maybe Washington is nowhere now, but I dont see why that cant change...

Jordan,

Nobody is saying it can't change. Just hasn't reached that stage of development yet. 20 years ago, you could say the same for Nebraska or the coast of Oregon.

In due time, my friend.

Then again, wisdom does come with age.  

[Peter_Herreid]

There is something of a black hole in the golf architectural history of the entire Pacific Northwest, in that the "Golden Age" of architecture, in large part, bypassed the entire region.

There is little disputing that some of the oldest courses in this area have considerable charm. Tacoma GCC, Fircrest CC, Rainier GCC, Waverly CC, Portland GC, etc, but they are far too short and hemmed in to adapt to the skills of the upper echelon modern day professional or high-level amateur.

On top of that, much of Egan and Macan's orginial work has been obliterated, and it is likely also true that it can't match up with the quality of what was being done at the same time in other parts of the country anyway...

Then came the "Black Hole", which ironically probably includes the heyday of RTJ, as he has essentially zero influence up here.  That is a pretty broad period during which other architects (Flynn, Ross, Raynor,whatever, let alone RTJ, Dick Wilson, etc.) have nothing in their pedigree here in the Northwest.

Nothing of significance was created up here for a big chunk of time.

With the exception of Sahalee, and take that for what you will, one has to get all the way to the early 90's before things started to change, with some of the upscale publics and the Pumpkin Ridges, The Reserve, TPC Snoqualmie coming online.

I think Aldarra Farms is, with the exception of a couple of holes, very high level work.

Therefore, there is a very soft middle in terms of golf course architecture, and it will take quite a while before that changes.

There are also profound problems dealing with government processes up here, which sounds cliched, but is hard to describe to outsiders.  It's not so much the environmental concerns and interest groups, as it is that so many of our civic officials are married to the idea of "the process", and everything has to be analyzed beyond the point of reason.  This makes any rational permitting processes almost impossible.  It is a miracle anything ever gets built up here, whether it's a highway, a viaduct, a greenbelt or a golf course.

I, for one, am perfectly happy with where the Gates' and the Gates Foundation seems to be directing much of their income.  There is no need for Bill Gates to build a private enclave up here for high end golf.  As was mentioned before, he has enough golf-related irons in the fire to satisfy his needs...

Peter

[Jordan Wall]

Perhaps BillParcells said it best when asked why the seahawks were not getting recognized...

"They live in South Alaska"

It needs to be more like, we live in north oregon, close to bandon...

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Peter..good points.

I also think that the geography creates some limitations other parts of the country do not have.  Then entire west side of the cascades is basically a coastal region, a mountain region, a continuous north south valley and then the Cascades. Most of this is (was) heavily forested.

From a societal perspective, if you are going to utilize the land, you must eat first, then transport your goods and finally you must house a growing population. And all of this on a relatively restricted area.  

Earlier populations simply didn't find a great need for golf, although it did find some popularity as a WINTER sport in the area.  Interestingly there really isn't enough precipitation to grow grass during the dry summer months.  

What this question brings to mind is a series of questions about our use of the land, the needs of the populace and how we balance those needs going forward.  The Seattle area, and particularly south in the Kent and Puyallup valleys, what was traditionally small truck farms is now becoming asphalt and warehouse.  The use of this valuable lowland for golf is prohibitive, but the green spaces are going to welcomed in a short time at our present rates of growth.

What was that thread about best small places to live?

[Garland Bayley]

With what was created at Bandon, why cant the coast of Washington provide any great courses?
...

Jordan,

Most of the Washington coast is National Park, National Forest, or Indian land. Therefore, chances of the coast of Washington providing any great course are very slim.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/united_states/fed_lands_2003/washington_2003.pdf

[Tom Dunne]

Jordan,

You've gotta read Stephen Goodwin's "Dream Golf". One of the things that really comes across in the book is how hard Mike Keiser and Howard McKee worked to get through the permitting red tape in place in eco-friendly (some might say "treehugging") Oregon. The land that is now Bandon Dunes Golf Resort had been slated to become a golf resort by the previous owners, but they couldn't clear this obstacle. (And thankfully, given what Keiser's team, Kidd, Doak and C&C have created there.)

Anyway, this is meant to dovetail a bit with Garland's post above: any land that isn't owned by the gubmint or the tribes likely also comes with Pacific northwest-style environmental barriers to development.

But what do I know...maybe some great piece of Washington coastline is sitting out there begging to be a golf course. It certainly wouldn't surprise me.....

[Matt_Ward]

Jordan:

The possibilities for top tier golf still can happen in Washington because of the land that's available but it's far more likely that won't happen unless the eastern half becomes the next "go to" place similar to what one sees today with Bend, OR.

I really like Desert Canyon in Orondo although some state residents have panned the course. Too much of the western range courses are clogged with trees (see Sahalee) and often times the turf is what Bill V described.

Don't know if you have ever played Indian Canyon in Spokane but Chandler Egan did well there given the tightness and pitch of the property.

Washington can leap ahead but it will take some prodding by some visionary folks in order to do that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter, et. al.,

Why doesn't Astoria get more recognition ?

According to Tommy Naccarato it has plenty of quirk.

Sandy soil and a near ocean location.

[Jay Flemma]

Peter, et. al.,

Why doesn't Astoria get more recognition ?

According to Tommy Naccarato it has plenty of quirk.

Sandy soil and a near ocean location.

Good question!  Get a good golf course there and we'd all have awesome greek food for dinner!' '

Jordan, I love the new avatar of Paterno, but don't you think it makes him look a little lilke Ruth Bader Ginsburg?

[Dan Herrmann]

Peter, et. al.,

Why doesn't Astoria get more recognition ?

According to Tommy Naccarato it has plenty of quirk.

Sandy soil and a near ocean location.

'Cuz it's private?

Honestly, I lived in Beaverton, OR from 85-93 and never even knew about Astoria.  I played all the private clubs in Portland (reciprocity is alive and well in the NW), but for some reason, Astoria was never even talked about.  Back then, "the" course at the coast was Salishan.  Only thing we knew about Astoria GC was that they had a well-known member-guest.

Our lack of knowledge of Astoria was obviously our mistake.

As far as the Washington coast, I don't think that it's very accessable.  Once you cross the Columbia from Astoria on US101 and get past Long Beach WA, there isn't a whole lot till you hit the Olympic peninsula, and if I got to Port Angeles, I'd rather take the ferry up to Victoria, BC.

To me, Oregon's coast is quite a bit better than Washington's.

Tom has Tumble Creek opening soon (http://www.tumblecreekclub.com/)  This looks very, very good!  It's about time good golf discovered the Cascades.

[Jordan Wall]

Jordan:

I really like Desert Canyon in Orondo although some state residents have panned the course. Too much of the western range courses are clogged with trees (see Sahalee) and often times the turf is what Bill V described.

Don't know if you have ever played Indian Canyon in Spokane but Chandler Egan did well there given the tightness and pitch of the property.

Matt:

Indian Canyon is where we play our state highschool golf tournament.  It is a good course, but pretty short.  These kinds of golf courses are good indeed but not what Washington needs of they seek to put their names on the lists of great golf ventures...

Also, one thing that is not helping Washington out is the fact that this Desert Canyon you mention is now closed down and is closed for play--for a long time too.  Long story but that certainly doesnt help Washington out for places to play.  I still say we have great land right on the ocean and somehow we just need to get a permit...

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