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Ran Morrissett

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Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« on: November 12, 2002, 06:00:36 PM »
...under My Home Course.

I haven't played this one which seems a real shame after having read through Wayne's piece and studied all the photos. Like so many of Flynn's best courses, it appears to be rock solid throughout with nothing contrived or forced upon the land.

What are its pros and cons relative to other such gems as Huntingdon Valley, Lancaster and Lehigh? How about against Aronimink - I know both courses are very, very tough against par?  Wonder why several of Flynn's finest courses around Philly seemingly fail to get the national recognition that they deserve?

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dave_Miller

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Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2002, 06:12:30 PM »
Ran:

Rolling Green is an outstanding golf course with wonderful routing, terrific use of topography, excellent greens, challenging and memorable holes.  Fun and Challenging for all levels of golfers.

Why it doesn't get more recognition on the National level is  probably is due to the fact that it is in the same area as Pine Valley, Merion, Huntington Valley, Manufacturers, etc.

To me Rolling Green is a true hidden gem.  Anyone who has the opportunity should absolutely not pass up the chance to play here.

Fairways and Greens,
Dave  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig_Rokke

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Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2002, 08:49:46 PM »
Rolling Green looks great. Nice write up and photos, Wayne.
I agree with Dave M. in that Pine Valley and Merion naturally gather the most attention from this region. Then, you have
Flynn and his six or seven very solid courses. Perhaps any single one fails to get a large amount of national attention because they're all equally good.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_F

Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2002, 12:42:48 AM »
Fantastic photos of a great looking course.  You Philadelphians look to be alomost as lucky as us Melburnians....
One thing, though.  As a student film maker, I'm interested in knowing whether it is the woods alongside the 9th, 12th or 15th fairways that The Blair Witch Project was filmed...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2002, 05:28:49 AM »
I'd like to thank Ron Forse for allowing me to use the pictures he took when we toured Rolling Green.  I'd also like to thank Craig Disher and his technical expertise to put the text and photos in a format that Ran could use for the MHC section.  

One issue I'd like to bring up is the mowing patterns that are used by our capable super, Warren Savini.  This is a labor intensive practice that is, I feel, unwise for this course.  It looks too busy, shows the ground contours too much (like Tom Paul, I think there should be more emphasis on the individual's study of the course and discerning the course's features and the resulting strategies), and is out of place on a classic age course.  I like the gang mowing look of the fairways (up and back) and a simpler approach mowing effect.  This is not to take anything away from Warren's superb efforts and continuing improvements to the playability and state of the course and the club grounds.  He is a great asset to our club as are all top flight superintendents to their own clubs.

I hope people enjoy the write-up and the photos.  I'd like to see more people post in this section and other sections in GCA.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Chris_Clouser

Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2002, 05:40:29 AM »
Wayne,

In your research into Flynn's career, where would you rank this course in comparison to his other designs (Top 15, Top 5) in your mind and what other courses have similarities in the design that are seen at RG?  Also among the holes at RG which ones do you feel really stand out in comparison to Flynn's other works?  Which ones would make a "best of" list, for lack of a better term?

I enjoyed the write-up, as I do with all of them, as it provides many of us an opportunity to learn about a course that is in another part of the country or world that me may never have the chance to really see in person.

Thanks for the effort.

Chris
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ChipOat

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Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2002, 06:13:02 AM »
Dave Miller:

Rolling Green may be an unknown outside of Philadelphia, but a hidden gem locally??

Maybe in the 60's and before.  My recollection from the 70's is that Huntington Valley may have had the best players, but that RG and, to a lesser degree, Lancaster had the better courses.  The buzz among those (allegedly) "in the know" was, "why don't people talk more about Rolling Green?".

Is Torresdale-Frankford now the great hidden gem of the GAP?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2002, 07:12:58 AM »
Wayne
  You did a great job.Thanks to Ron Forse for his pictures and advice.Thanks to Craig for helping out.

  I appreciate your comments on needed tree removal on #7 and#12. I never thought about it before!!!Flynn did a great job.There is no need to change anything beyond the tees.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2002, 07:24:56 AM »
It's somewhat curious to me why Flynn's consistently fine Philadelphia golf courses are not held in higher esteem nationally.

I would account that to the fact that none of them have had any national tournament exposure in many decades.

However, the Golf Association of Philadephia which is now made up of 120 clubs within a 150 mile radius of central Philly holds tournaments, particularly class A tournaments, on most all their top members courses and on the class A tournament circuit it's generally felt (by the players) that the difficulty (to scoring) among the district courses generally includes these four at the top in difficulty (in no particular difficutly order).

Pine Valley (Crump)
Merion (Wilson/Flynn)
Huntingdon Valley (Flynn)
Rolling Green (Flynn)

All four courses were built by architects of what is known as the "Philadelphia School of Architecture".

The "Philadelphia School of Architecture" is not considered to be a "school" in the sense of a particular "style" or "look" but more a group of five friends (six if W. Fownes is included) who happened to often work in loose collaboration with each other. The other two "Philadelphia School" architects (the friends) were A.W. Tillinghast and George Thomas.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

BCrosby

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Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2002, 08:15:14 AM »
Wayne -

Great job.

I agree, more of us should contribute to the "My Home Course" feature. It would be a big help if Ran could post something that explains how to set up photos and text. Your presentation is terrific. And intimidating to those of us less tech savy. That technical guidance would also be helpful for anyone wanting to contribute to the "In My Opinion" feature.  

Tom -

The Philadelphia School is a curious thing. I had always imagined that Crump was the father figure of the group. He was the oldest, wasn't he? But of the courses lumped under the Phillie School, PV is the odd man out. No one in the group seemed to follow Crump with similarly penal designs.

(I am excluding Oakmont. It is across the state and, according to my wife who was raised where the Monongahela and the Allegheny merge to form the mighty Ohio, Pittsburgh has more to do with Cleveland than with Philadelphia.)

So what is it that makes it a "school" other than the fact that they were all wonderfully talented architects who lunched together in Phillie? Was there one in the group that was more equal than the others? Was there a leader of the pack? Were there design principles they had in common and that they consciously promoted?

Curious Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2002, 08:27:31 AM »
Excellent job, Wayne! You're very good. But you'd have to be or otherwise why would I have agreed to write a book with you? (redanman, how do I do those simley faces again? I'm a complete dunce!).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2002, 08:31:26 AM »
Bob Crosby;

I'm sure somehow Ran will figure out a way to include a primer for us computer illiterates on how to do these kinds of great "My Home Course" inclusions!

But the little known fact is Ran just may be the most computer illiterate of all of us! (Second, probably, as he can't be as computer illiterate as me).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2002, 08:42:08 AM »
I would question Ran's assertion that Rolling Green doesn't get the national recognition that it deserves.  

I don't know how many hidden gems have hosted a US Women's Open, and are presently ranked #62 on "Golfweek"'s Top 100 Classical Course listing of America's Best.  (ahead of such "better known" courses as Congressional, Ridgewood, Kittansett, Canterbury, Saucon Valley, Champions, Taconic, Westchester, etc.)

Still, the fact that there seems to be a good deal of interest here in learning more about the course is a very good thing, in my opinion.

Wayne did a great job with the profile, and my only regret is that the pictures really tend to flatten out the rolling terrain.  If one looks at pics like the tee shot on #7 or #11, it doesn't begin to convey the elevation changes, unless one is careful to look at the tops of the mature trees.  Similarly, the perilous nature of the approach to 13 is really not captured well, unfortunately.  

I would also mention that I've heard the par three 14th mentioned in the same breath as "Calamity" in Ireland, such is the nature of the steep dropoff to the right of that long par three.  

Among Flynn courses in the region, Rolling Green certainly holds its head high with Huntingdon Valley, Philly CC, Lehigh, Manufacturers, Lancaster, Philmont and several others.  Each have particular strengths, and each have been maintained in slightly different ways over the years, some for the better and some (such as Manufacturers having WAY too many trees planted) for the worse.  

In the case of RG, a good case can be made that it has the most difficult approaches and greens of any of the Flynn courses, simply due to the fact that so many of them are elevated and have a considerable degree of slope (see my recent thread, "Flynn's Rollback approaches").  While it's difficult to post a score, it remains enormously fun due to a great variety of hole lengths and considerable changes in elevation that need to be considered with each shot.  And, like many golden age courses, the challenge often only begins once one reaches the greens.    

RG can stand some tree removal, as well, as pointed out by others here, but the basic design has been preserved well through the years and remains as good an example of Flynn's lineage as any I can think of....better known or not.      
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

Craig Disher

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Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2002, 08:54:01 AM »
DO NOT let the look of the RG entry prevent anyone from submitting something. Ran only needs pictures in jpg format and the narrative in a text file (I used MSWord) with notes indicating where to insert the pictures. The files can be emailed to him - you don't need a web site. Magically, the finished product appears on GCA less than a day later. If Ran is computer illiterate, we're all deaf, dumb and blind.

Mayday,
Any thought given to removing or cutting back some of the trees between the right fairway bunker and the green on 18? Some appear to have pencil-sized trunks and couldn't have been there when Flynn designed the hole. They completely negate an approach (although awkward) from the right side.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2002, 08:56:22 AM »
Bob Crosby:

Those are all very interesting questions about the "Philadephia School of Architecture"!

I'm about to launch into a major paper on what it was and wasn't! So far as I know nothing has ever been written to attempt to comprehensively explain or decribe it! (GeoffShac did though in a few pages in the "Golden Age of Golf Design").

William Fownes (Oakmont) although on the other side of the state was remarkably closely connected to the Philadephia School (sometimes called the "(Pennsylvania)" school simply to include Fownes) and happened to be probably the most vocal and opinionated member of Pine Valley's very important 1921 Advisory Committee that had the job of finishing off Pine Valley in the context of "what George Crump would have wanted" (after Crump died prematurely and unexpectedly).

The so-called "Philly School" really was a close cooperating small group of friends though and there are clearly vestiges of each others ideas and sometimes hands in each others work!

Crump, though, probably did start it all off with PVGC and his remarkable effort to both cooperate and inspire cooperation was at the base of it, I'm sure. Pine Valley during it's rather long creation was probably the greatest and most extensive cooperative labatory of architects at basically one time in the history of golf!

But as most know, there was a kernel of true inspiration that the first of the Philly architects drew from and very directly! And that was guess who? C.B MacDonald! The first few of them went to him directly for both inspiration and direction!

And the other interesting thing is of the five Philly School architects (six if Fownes is included) four of them never took a nickel for anything they ever did in architecture! In this way it can probably be seen clearly how and why they all might have been close friends.

The subject of the Leslie Cup (started in 1900) is very important in all this too as it shows how they all played golf together and competitively too--and even before becoming architects!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

chairman

Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2002, 09:01:09 AM »
kudos to wayne for rg description and photos.  credit should be give to mayday for some of the tree removal.  more is planned and he has semi-converted me to slash and burn mindset.  however. i still feel that trees short and right of sene should remain as removal of trees in that area would make an easy holel much easier. my analysis is an objective one and i think that nay reasonable man would agree. of course, mayday does not.   it would be nice if mayday gave me credit for back tee on 5 and proposed lengthening of 16.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

redanman

Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2002, 09:05:52 AM »
Ran

Why no link for this thread to the piece again???


As for Flynn, the problem we in Eastern PA have is trying to compare the various Flynn masterpieces.  Doak said it well in CGTGC in saying that Cherry Hills wouldn't even be noticed if it were in Phila.

Rolling Green, Lancaster, Lehigh, Huntingdon Valley ABC, manufacturers - there really are a lot of similarities in strengths but a lot of individual personalities, too.  The use of severe parts of the land was a marked superlative of Flynn.  

Personally I have an order of excellence (No my home course Lehigh is not#1) but the margins are all very thin and Cherry Hills which I know well falls below all of them for architectural excellence and with the altitude difference, it is not even close to the "toughest" (for you Golf Digest types - which really doesn't factor much for my evaluation past a point).

Very nice piece on yet another really fine Flynn course.  Arguably the most consistent quality architect.

And Tommy, I'm not going to show you again about the smileys!  8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2002, 09:06:08 AM »
Craig
 These small trees are on my list.Last year we cut down several large trees at the corner of the dogleg.The result was that the bunker just short of the green /right got much  more play----just as it was designed.BTWthe cart path needs to come out also.
 There are other chances to recover the original design through selected tree removal.As you are well aware this is a lifetime effort.Wayne mentions #7 and#12.There are also two trees planted outside of the original line on the left of #15.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

Mike_Cirba

Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2002, 09:07:49 AM »
chairman;

It was nice to meet you the other day, and the new tee on 5 works well.  I suspect that the one on 16 will too.  

Congratulations on partially coming over to "the dark side".  ;)

I'm not a "reasonable man" by any stretch  :D, so I'll have to side with Mayday and Wayne on the trees along the right side of #7.  I think we had this debate online a few months back, but just to reiterate my point...can you imagine how much fun it would be for the mid-handicapper trying to use that natural slope for a 200+ yard fairway-metal approach?  Right now, they don't have that option, and although I'm sure you are probably coming into that green with a 4-5 iron after a good drive, most don't have your length and proficiency.  I also don't see how those trees affect the options of the better players after a good drive.  They simply limit what the shorter or higher-handicapper player is able to do on the hole.  

 

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2002, 09:19:33 AM »
Tom -

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with. A great topic.

It's an interesting theory that C.B.MacD spawned two very different architectural lines. On the one hand there were the engineers (Raynor/Banks - can we call them the "Connecticut School"?) with the six or seven template holes that they reproduced on each of their courses.

On the other hand there were the artists (Wilson/Thomas/Flynn) who were more free form and site specific. They worked more from first principles rather than replicating certain end products (e.g., building a Redan hole).

I had never placed MacD with the Philly group. If your thesis pans out, MacD's importance to the history of gca in the US has been grossly underestimated.

Fascinating.

Bob

    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2002, 09:19:38 AM »
chairman
  I refer you to previous threads dealing with discussions of "Par".If #7 is seen as a beautifully designed "ground game" hole ,which exquisitly uses the hill short of the green in the only" downhill /sidehill 40-to -60 yd.approach to a green that slopes away from you"hole on the course,then leave it the way Flynn did it.
  If ,however,protecting par is the goal then we can discuss ways to do that.Why not make it a par 4.Would it be easy then?
   Flynn is rolling in his grave over this egregious ruination of his work.I know because he told me!!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »
AKA Mayday

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2002, 09:42:42 AM »
mayday,
The next time you're talking to Flynn, please give him my number. There are a few things I'd like to square with him.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2002, 09:53:03 AM »
Bob,
I wish I knew how to do the posting, it was Craig Disher's skills (Craig, I promise I won't send anyone your phone number).  Tom and I have a bunch of individual hole drawings that I would love to post for all to consider (Flynn, Ross, and a few others).  Ran, if you could include a how-to page or a link that would show the steps, it would greatly add to the content on the site.

Chris,
Good questions (and tough!).  In my opinion, there is Shinnecock and then everything else in Flynn's inventory.  Ran asked me why there is such a drop off in the quality of his inventory after SH.  Well, the rest are all strong courses with some absolutely great ones.  This is less an indictment on the rest of the courses but an acknowledgement of just how great SHGC is.  Tom Paul pointed out, and I agree, especially with the more courses we see, that Flynn's career inventory is stronger across the board than any other architect; he didn't build weak courses. The reason for this is he limited his yearly output and worked very hard at each individual site where he often made several design iterations with some seemingly minor changes along the way that result in the finished product.  Not only this, he went back and made revisions where necessary after the courses were in play for a time so that he could amend the plan if necessary.

Of the 20 or so courses I have seen, I would definitely put RGGC in the top 5.  Huntindon Valley, Philly Country, Lancaster, Lehigh, Brookline, and others have some similarities to RGGC.  A comprehensive analysis will have to wait till the book comes out.  Flynn designed great courses but also did significant designs and redesigns at some of the outstanding courses of his day (Merion (East and West), TCC-Brookline, etc).  We are still analyzing our wealth of materials and gathering others from various sources, but I feel certain that the more we know of Flynn's work (accurately attributed) the higher the regard we have for him.

Tom Paul was the first to remark that Flynn was part of a movement in golf that seemed to originate on the east coast in general and in Philadelphia and Oakmont in particular.  This is the notion of championship golf courses that were not meant for everyone.  Earlier architects were spreading the game and it would not have helped if all the courses that were bringing the game to the masses were just plain brutal to play.  Flynn, Wilson, Crump,Tillinghast, Fownes, etc raised golf architecture to a more sophisticated level in demanding specific shots and a wider range of skills to play the course effectively.  

Some things are certain: Flynn had a wide range of design tendencies and particularly bunker styles; made very specific shot demands of good golfers (offered multiple tees and other routes to the green for mediocre players); pushed the envelope in terms of degree of difficulty (Mill Road Farm); was an  innovator (multiple tees, reversible course design (Pocantico Hills)); routed better than anyone ever did and was bold and daring in doing so.  His courses on rolling terrain (Cascades and Homestead) in PA (Huntingdon Valley, Lehigh, Lancaster, Philly CC, etc) and the northeast is the work usually associated with him, but he did terrific work on flat ground and near the sea (Kittansett, Atlantic City CC, Boca Raton North and South, Indian Creek, and others).  

The Flynn greens are the most consistant part of his repetoir with generally restrained internal contours compounded by some significant slope.  He definitely liked, as others did, to situate them on elevated sites where he could with rollbacks in the front as Mike Cirba has previously noted.

As far as a "best of list" goes, I will hold off for now.  But I encourage others to post their own best long and short par 3,4, and 5 holes.  Best stretch of holes, most daring routing, best finishing hole, starting hole, etc.  

I think all will be pleased with the book that Tom and I are working on and hope to finish by the first quarter of 2004.  It will be a comprehensive study of his work in golf, utilizing an unprecedented amount of archival materials for an architect of that era, with an extraordinarily high standard of research and analysis.  This last point is most important to us, that the process we use is accurate and exhaustive so that the output reflects as much truth as can be determined.  Where there are any educated assumptions, they will be so noted.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:11 PM by -1 »

wsmorrison

Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2002, 09:54:38 AM »
I'm at work and it took me a long time to finish the post, i see others have already touched on the subjects above.  Glad to see that there is a great deal of interest.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Wayne Morrison's Rolling Green GC is posted...
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2002, 10:16:32 AM »
Mark F.
  Your cinematic skills are better than you think.There was a film made at RG.It is "Gentleman's Game" I  have a few second cameo.
  BTW i think i have a cameo in these photos as well.-----the guy in the cart at back of#2 green.Clues---no clubs in back of cart and i was there learning from Ron Forse that day.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
AKA Mayday

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