[mike_malone]

As I glance at the LPGA event from the aerial views, I see these islands of green in the barren desert. This seems to be a long way from the golf in Scotland . Even the parkland courses that I frequent are basically just part of the overall environment.


   I have previously decided never to play one of these courses. Now I have decided never to watch one on TV.

[ed_getka]

Mike,
  It most certainly is NOT an abomination IMO.You are going to miss some good golf by skipping the desert. Quickly off the top of my head, Black Mesa, Apache Stronghold, Talking Stick, Desert Forest, etc... All courses I haven't seen yet but certainly intend to. But different strokes for different folks.

[Jin Kim]

I love desert golf.  Visually very stunning.  Troon North is one of my favorite courses in the US.

[mike_malone]

 Ed,


   I have heard good things about those courses. In fact, what I have picked up from some discussionson this site is their possible sensitivity to their surrounds. But the courses that have such stark looking differences just look like some environmental disaster or a form of man's hubris.

[mike_malone]

Enough of this highmindedness---time for "The Sopranos"

[Jay Flemma]

I'm not so sure, Mayday.  Is it possible that might be a little strong?

Golf roots were to start from point A and make your way across the land as you found it, until you reached the end at point B, and then (or later) make your way back.  Just because the land at that time and place was the sandy soil of scotland doesn't mean that the game cant or wasn't supposed to translate to other climes.  The issue for me would be how natural could the architect make the course feel.

If a desert course has waterfalls and palm trees and perfectly sculpted cloverleaf bunkers, I'm going to gag.  But TSN is great because is such a simple yet accurate representation of exactly what the scots and their guests (the dutch perhaps?) did centuries ago...make their way across the natural landscape with their clubs.

[ed_getka]

Mike,
    I hear what you are saying, but I would think the main environmental issue would be water issues. Even then most courses seem to use effluent/recycled water in areas like that I think, so that may not be a big issue. Other than that I generally think a golf course is a decent use of land in those settings. It certainly doesn't look natural, but from my experience at Troon North years ago it certainly was beautiful.

[Ryan Farrow]

You need to take a trip to arizona now. That is all i need to say. If you play the right courses your view will change.

[Forrest Richardson]

There is very little golf in the U.S. which is as natural as that upon the linksland of the British Isles. (Pennsylvania included )

The original linksland for golf was second-hand land, but it served a good purpose for recreation. People gathered there and eventually it became maintained and nurtured — today it is irrigated artificially in most places (courses).

Desert courses are serving the same purpose — Recreation and open space for communities. In many cases these courses are irrigated with treated effluent (treated sewage). Turf filters the treated water before it re-enters the water table below ground.

My disagreement with most desert courses is the harsh edge which runs along the fairways. I prefer a meandering edge defined when irrigation is left to run wherever it may. Arthur Jack Snyder's original work at The Boulders is the best I ever saw. So, too, was Desert Forest (Red Lawrence). But Desert Forest is slowly being adjusted with that harder edge that is so typical of most desert courses.

[Jordan Wall]

What needs to be remembered is that not everywhere has land like say Scotland or Ireland.

Sometimes you just gotta make do with what you got.

No parkland, no desert golf, pretty much no golf in the US.

[Evan_Green]

As I glance at the LPGA event from the aerial views, I see these islands of green in the barren desert. This seems to be a long way from the golf in Scotland . Even the parkland courses that I frequent are basically just part of the overall environment.


   I have previously decided never to play one of these courses. Now I have decided never to watch one on TV.

I'm pretty sure if you saw Talking Stick from the ground you would like it. There's great bunkering, plenty of strategy and it is much less island to island target golf than others.

While I can see why people may not like desert golf, I really do enjoy it. If you pick the right courses, it is less "stock" than you may think.

[Forrest Richardson]

Superstition Mountain is usually enjoyable...a solid course by Mr. Nicklaus II. Both courses are solid.

Today, however, they were wet and cold! I had the honor of playing the Lost Gold Course with Hillary Lunke — what a delight she was.

I think the heart of the issue with this thread is whether the "broken ground" of the desert is a placeholder for natural dunesland, native grassland or unkempt mooreland.

If you are going to have golf in the desert, I feel it best to retain the natural land and work within the turf allowances at play. Talking Stick mixes more traditional design with its own brand of "target". You will still find plenty of desert patches between holes and along tees. Even across a few fairways. I am not sure that makes it necessarily better. I believe one must look at the course as a whole — the sum of parts...of each of the holes.

[Bill_McBride]

Winter golf. Arizona or California or Florida.  I'll take a well-designed desert course with smooth tie ins to the natural terrain anytime over yet another Florida course - condos left, water right, etc.   The good desert courses are very good indeed.

[Craig Sweet]

Interesting...Tucson Arizona gets 12 inches of rain per year and Deer Lodge, Montana, where Doak is building a course, gets 14 inches per year.....but you would not consider golf in Deer Lodge, MT to be desert golf....nor an abomination.

I wonder how much rain they get in Mullen, Nebraska?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Craig,
Exactly. Most of the western US is a desert, so that's a lot of bad courses...I guess.
And as far as natural looking, the other day I was taking a nature hike and stumbled upon a hole in the ground that was the spitting image of hell bunker, right up to the stacked sod and perfect edge.
There are no “native” or “natural” golf courses, some just look better then others.

[Peter Pallotta]

I have mixed feelings about desert golf. I will say this though: the orginal linksland wasn't much good for anything EXCEPT for golf; while the desert isn't much good for anything INCLUDING golf - not when we know going in that we'll be adding, what, 300,000 gallons of water a day just to make the game posisble. Can we imagine the practical old Scots going to all that trouble and expense? We might; but they didn't.

Peter

[Jay Flemma]

There are no “native” or “natural” golf courses, some just look better then others.

Don, I'm not so sure.  Do you mean "there are no native or natural golf courses in the SW desert because grass does not grow well there?"

Yes, I agree that not all desert is created equal...high desert vs. death valley and so on. But there are still plenty of places where people can go out and lay out stakes in the grass for tees, stakes in the grass for greens and have a great course.

Just because the scots didnt have desert doesnt mean we cant play in it.  The game is simple.  Drop a ball somewhere outside your front door, hit out to a point.  Turn around, come back.  Who's to say that the front door of someone in new england is better than the front door in New Mexico.

[Evan_Green]

Superstition Mountain is usually enjoyable...a solid course by Mr. Nicklaus II. Both courses are solid.

Today, however, they were wet and cold! I had the honor of playing the Lost Gold Course with Hillary Lunke — what a delight she was.

I think the heart of the issue with this thread is whether the "broken ground" of the desert is a placeholder for natural dunesland, native grassland or unkempt mooreland.

If you are going to have golf in the desert, I feel it best to retain the natural land and work within the turf allowances at play. Talking Stick mixes more traditional design with its own brand of "target". You will still find plenty of desert patches between holes and along tees. Even across a few fairways. I am not sure that makes it necessarily better. I believe one must look at the course as a whole — the sum of parts...of each of the holes.

Forrest,

The one thing about Talking Stick North though which differentiates it in my mind is that many of those desert patches that you were referring to are playable whereas on a course like Chiricahua, if you're not on green stuff or in a bunker,  forget about it...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

 I have heard good things about those courses. In fact, what I have picked up from some discussionson this site is their possible sensitivity to their surrounds. But the courses that have such stark looking differences just look like some environmental disaster or a form of man's hubris.

This statement is proof that you've been sipping too much from Charlie Logan's white styrofoam cup.

[Gene Greco]

Interesting...Tucson Arizona gets 12 inches of rain per year and Deer Lodge, Montana, where Doak is building a course, gets 14 inches per year.....but you would not consider golf in Deer Lodge, MT to be desert golf....nor an abomination.

I wonder how much rain they get in Mullen, Nebraska?

15 inches per year. However, last year they must have got that amount in only the three months prior to Mucci's visit.

[Jim Nugent]

Superstition Mountain is usually enjoyable...a solid course by Mr. Nicklaus II. Both courses are solid.

Today, however, they were wet and cold! I had the honor of playing the Lost Gold Course with Hillary Lunke — what a delight she was.

How did she play?  More generally, how are her spirits and game since she won the U.S. Open several years ago?

[A.G._Crockett]

How could a golf course anywhere be an abomination???

[mike_malone]

 Is "not disturbing the land" a core value of golf ? Is it part of what separates golf from other sports/ games ?

[redanman]

No, I've played a lot and I'm one of their greatest critics, but they are not at all abominations  They do get tiresome on a steady diet.  They don't generally come out as great.  One might think as a completely manufactured course they might occasionally be great, but most of it is just giggle scenery golf.

It is like any golf, loads of fun, but great architecture is pretty rare.

So here's another opportunity for Ted to jump on me!  

[A.G._Crockett]

Is "not disturbing the land" a core value of golf ? Is it part of what separates golf from other sports/ games ?

It is certainly a core value on this site, and one that I share.  However, there must be a qualified meaning to that, no?  Otherwise, there would be only a handful of courses in the world, and many would be decidedly uninteresting.

I'd rather play TOC than Troon North, but I would sure rather play Troon North than not play.  Besides, the stark contrast of the desert courses to their surroundings is truly beautiful in its own way, and for the same reasons that links courses stir something in us all.

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