[Marc Haring]

Does anyone know of two tiered greens where the top tier is on the left and the lower one is on the right side, or visa versa. The only one I can think of is #1 at Royal Ashdown Forest. What are the merits, or otherwise,of such greens and where might they work?

It’s just that we are building a new nine holes and I felt this type of green would fit in on our #8 especially if I can curve the top tier around at the back of the green to create a sucker pin placement.

[MikeJones]

A few thoughts, it could be used to penalise a bad approach angle rather than the obligatory bunker as the approach would have to be played across the now diagonal tier.
A tier or steep green slope could be used to 'section' off a pin area that may lie behind another hazard such as water or nasty bunker (much like you're suggesting) - if you play away from the guarding hazard to a safer area of the green you're going to have a tricky putt.
If it's more of a steep downslope than a definite tier it could be used to feed the ball down to a difficult pin area.

I'm sure there are many more uses for a tier that runs lengthwise rather than accross. It's not that common a feature so anything that add some nice variety is welcome!

[Tony_Muldoon]

Marc when I played Woking I thought the greens had more variety and surprise than anywhere else I've played. There were several greens that flowed the way you described. The 18th definately moves down in layers towards the pond not towards the fairway (I think there's at least 3 tiers).  

The other one I recall is the 13th(?).  You drive onto a fairway with a slight left to right slope. You then have to play accross a sort of valley and the angle of the green follows the slope of the fairway. So slicers are lucky to keep any shot on the green.

[Richard Pennell]

Tony - I remember the 14th hole's contours being at an angle to play as well - lower tier left, higher on the right. That's the green with huge clubhouse windows behind. I think its about 45 degrees to the fairway.

Marc - that's exciting, building a new 9 holes. Are you designing them excusively yourselves?

[Jordan Wall]

After reading Ran's profile on Salem Country Club, a Donald Ross, it looks as #13 has a left tier and then a lower tier on the right, like a punchbowl.  It looks like a great hole.

Good luck on your project and hole 8 especially!!

[Mike Hendren]

This photo of the 17th at French Lick Springs' Hill Course from Ran's profile:



The slope is even more pronounced than depicted.  

Another take on the greens-within-a-green concept that fits nicely on a hillside.  

[Paul_Turner]

Marc

Isn't St George's Hill the king of these?  3,4,10,14?,15  Side to side split levels of various types.

Muirfield's 5th is another great one by HSC.

[MikeJones]

Hole 6 Wentworth West. One of the trickiest ones I can think of. The tier runs straight across the width of the green but as the green is set at an angle it has the same effect.

[T_MacWood]

Travis created greens with perpendicular tiers (Columbia and Lookout Point had examples of this green)...very serious tiers I might add, like two or three feet elevation change.

[Tom_Doak]

The 18th green at Sebonack is that way ... I had thought of the 5th at Muirfield, but the Sebonack green is a lot more difficult.

[Phil_the_Author]

The 17th green on Bethpage Black has two tiers, the left being higher by several feet than the right with it rolling out to an almost false front.

[Marc Haring]

Thanks for the info Guys. That’s what I love about this site. Ask about a certain feature and a mass of examples come flooding back. Of course, Woking #18 and #14 and the ones at St Georges Hill. It’s been a long time since I played there. I remember that # 4 at SGH being really special.

I am not the designer but am in the very privileged position of having much influence. The existing 27-hole course is owned by two people who do not actually play any golf to speak of and as Course Director they rely on myself to insure everything will turn out well. That is why I was especially interested in the ‘what makes a course fun to play’ thread and I’m glad to say that this next nine is looking very much along the lines of the general consensus. Wide fairways, uneven lies, hardly any trees, no water, central hazards, really interesting green complexes and a great location and views.

Here’s a view of the back of #8, a long, long  par five with all sorts of interest on the drive and a couple of bunkers 50 yards short of the green which will create a narrow ‘go for it’ option for the really long hitters.
 

This is the view from the approach.


And here is the kind of views over the Cotswold countryside you get from the top of the new course. We are trying to create a quirky downland feel to the holes. Personally I would like to get radical and go for some real Painswickian character but my creative urges have been reeled in a bit by the less adventurous but more influential.

[Stuart Hallett]

Saint-Cloud has a nice example that was unfortunately smoothed out some years ago. The green split was a mine field of wild humps and hollows. It's the downhill 6th hole, a par 3 criticised by F.Hawtree in "The Golf Course".

The conifers definitely have to go, but I still like the hole.

[Paul_Turner]

Hi Stuart

A super hole and the bunker just in view on the right is deep!  I didn't know the green had been smoothed because it's still a nice one.  Is there an old pic for comparison, or word of mouth?

What does Hawtree write?

[Stuart Hallett]

Paul,

I hope you can make out the contouring on this very old looking photo (no date).

When writing about green concepts, F. Hawtree wrote "There is no reason why the surface should not be split into three levels if the site requires it, but use of the sub-level system to overcome lateral slope is not to be recommended. There is, or was, a short hole at St-Cloud which had the intermediate bank running in the same axis as the shot. Although perfectly visible, the halving of width is uncomfortable and flukey".

I tend to disagree with him as I like the concept. The green offers targets within a target with suitable punishment for poor execution of a short iron shot.

[David_Madison]

#17 at Finley GC, which is UNC-Chapel Hill's course, has a two-tier green with the left side being much higher than the right. It's a par-5 with a split fairway for the second shot. Depending upon where the pin is, you have to be on the correct side or have little chance of getting your third shot close, especially when the cup is anywhere near the ridge line.

[James Bennett]

Marc

the first hole at my Club (Blackwood) has a split tier green.  The lower left is guarded by bunkers left and short, while the higher right (perhaps a foot higher) is guarded by an steep bank and hollow.  The green is elevated on all sides, but is small (not much more than 3200 sq feet).

Why was this green designed such?  Well, to solve some drainage issues, the green needed to be raised.  But the left hand bunker was reasonably deep (for a members club) and so 25 years ago, they didn't want to increase the effective depth of the bunker.  So, a green that used to slope left to right (and drain where golfers walked) now slopes right to left.  The hardest play is from short, right of the green to any left hand pin (the mound, the downill tier, the left bunker and the steep fall-off at the back all come into play - let alone the penalty for duffing the chip into the slope in front).

Strategy is really different to the old hole, with the 'easy' bail out short and right producing the most challenging recovery.  Right used to be the percentage safe play!

James B

[ForkaB]

Burntisland (Willie Park Jr., c. 1895) has two of these in a row (2nd--a 520 yard 3-shotter, and the 3rd--a 210 yard par 3).  Both have the high bit to the right, as per the lay of the land.  Both are excellent golf holes and demonstrate the craft of Wee Willie, which he passed on to William Morris, from which intereaction the Arts and Crafts Movement was later formed........

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