News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Matt_Ward

Re:Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #50 on: March 13, 2006, 08:16:29 PM »
Just to echo what's been said already -- I will be very interested in seeing how the second 18 at Pronghorn come out since TF is the architect there.

The Nicklaus layout is indeed a stunning triumph -- be interested to see if the TF layout is at the same level. If it is then I would say it would merit serious attention among the best TF layouts I have played.

What's really puzzling with TF is that there are clear instances when he is fully capable in delivering the goods in terms of quality architecture -- the missing ingredient seems to be the originality which is often thrown out the window for the sake of expediency in providing a general sameness to so many of his courses.

rgkeller

Re:Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #51 on: March 14, 2006, 03:39:39 PM »
Augusta National and Pine Valley have to be somewhere in Fazio's top five.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #52 on: March 14, 2006, 04:52:14 PM »
Just to echo what's been said already -- I will be very interested in seeing how the second 18 at Pronghorn come out since TF is the architect there.

The Nicklaus layout is indeed a stunning triumph -- be interested to see if the TF layout is at the same level. If it is then I would say it would merit serious attention among the best TF layouts I have played.


I saw a few early pictures, or at least I believe them to be so, in a magazine at the Portland Golf Show.

They looked amazing, if you like the craggy style bunker look.  

Central Oregon is a cool place, if he catches the land right, Fazio's 18 could complete a nice complex.

from the Nicklaus website......

this hole kinda reminds me of the 15th at Pine Valley





 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 04:55:01 PM by Michael Dugger »
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #53 on: March 14, 2006, 05:23:09 PM »
Cary -

I am with Matt in that I thought the greens at Dallas National were some of Fazio's better greens. I do agree with you though that Sage Valley is one of his better courses. I would say it would be #5 or #6 of the ones I played.
Mr Hurricane

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2012, 09:30:29 PM »
1. Victoria National
2. Dallas National
3. Shooting Star
4. John's Island West
5. Coppinwood

Next 5 (NPO):
Glenwild
Gozzer Ranch
The National GC of Canada
Mountaintop
Shadow Creek

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2012, 09:39:20 PM »
1. Victoria National
2. Dallas National
3. Shooting Star
4. John's Island West
5. Coppinwood

Next 5 (NPO):
Glenwild
Gozzer Ranch
The National GC of Canada
Mountaintop
Shadow Creek

Mark:

Have you played Diamond Creek or Wade Hampton?  I think they both should be included in your list.

Bart

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2012, 09:45:59 PM »
Bart, I haven't yet had the privilege.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2012, 10:22:23 PM »
If the National of Canada is on the list then "Which Fazio we be talkin' bout here?"

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2012, 10:27:39 PM »
If the National of Canada is on the list then "Which Fazio we be talkin' bout here?"

Wayne, my understanding is that Tom has co-credit for National.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #59 on: July 30, 2012, 12:04:32 PM »
No love for World Woods, guys?
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2012, 12:18:59 PM »
Mark,

Have you visited Madison Club in LaQuinta, CA ?

http://www.madisonclubca.com/the_golf/

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2012, 01:36:11 PM »
I still like Wild Dunes.  Talk about a course that has fallen way off the radar. 

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2012, 01:44:02 PM »
Again, if ever opened Chileno Bay here on Cabo will be pretty near the top of a Fazio list.

Jimmy Cavezza

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2012, 02:21:43 PM »
This is difficult because there are so many Great courses to choose from! 

Pronghorn
Shooting Star
Gozzer Ranch
Madison Club
Old North State Club @ Uwharrie Point

The top 3 are so good it's hard to choose which is the best!  All of these courses have a different feel and are great in their own way! 

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2012, 02:22:16 PM »
Updated list:
1. Victoria National
2. Gozzer Ranch
3. Alotian
4. Wade Hampton
5. Shadow Creek
Mr Hurricane

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2012, 07:47:52 PM »
This is difficult because there are so many Great courses to choose from! 
 

If any of them were actually Great they would actually be easy choices.

Note:  I have not seen the latest greatest ... Shooting Star or Gozzer Ranch (or Alotian or Martis Camp or Dallas National).  However, for the last 15 years, whatever is the newest Fazio course has continually surpassed his last great courses in the minds of panelists.  To me, that's a sign that they are all excellent courses but that none of them are Great.  A truly great course is not so easy to surpass your next time out.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2012, 09:56:02 PM »
Tom D,

Has Fazio ever gotten a piece of land to work as good as your best courses? He wouldn't be my choice to build on a world class piece of land, but I would be curious to see what he would do if he did.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2012, 09:59:45 PM »
"Fazio" and "Top 5" don't belong in the same sentence.

C'mon guys, Saltzman was baiting me by bumping this thread back to the first page!
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

hhuffines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2012, 10:08:41 PM »
Hey Mark, glad to hear Wild Dunes is worth a game.  We really enjoy fishing around there.  Has the course recovered from all the storms over the years?  Hart

Andy Troeger

Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #69 on: July 30, 2012, 11:17:39 PM »
My list...

1. Victoria National
2. Gozzer Ranch
3. Shooting Star
4. The Alotian
5. Dallas National

I'm guessing this is gonna change in September though...

The first two create some separation in my mind, and #3 does a little bit as well

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #70 on: July 30, 2012, 11:39:34 PM »
It's tough to beat the Wynn. If your not getting comped because of your play don't bother.  The course is designed specifically to compliment the resort.  Funny thing, I can't recall playing 5 Fazio's.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2012, 12:02:43 AM »
TomD.

Has Fazio ever gotten a piece of land to work as good as your best courses?

You're kidding?   Fazio has continually gotten great pieces of land to work with.  Desert, ocean front, low country and mountains. Plus he has huge budgets.


Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2012, 07:20:27 AM »
Joel,

Seriously? Do you think mountains, deserts and low country are great pieces of property to build GREAT courses? How do his ocean properties compare to Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle? Fazio has no great great courses in my mind. I don't know of a course that he built that was on land that could have yielded one, but perhaps I am wrong.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #73 on: July 31, 2012, 07:46:56 AM »
Joel,

Seriously? Do you think mountains, deserts and low country are great pieces of property to build GREAT courses? How do his ocean properties compare to Pacific Dunes and Barnbougle? Fazio has no great great courses in my mind. I don't know of a course that he built that was on land that could have yielded one, but perhaps I am wrong.


Sean,

I guess if the only way you can build a great course is to have oceanfront property or land in the sand hills, then no, Tom Fazio hasn't had any land like that.*  He's not likely to get hired to build a course in the sand hills -- the numbers don't work for that -- but I don't know why he's never been hired to work on oceanfront property.  Or, maybe I do -- Chileno Bay in Cabo has some oceanfront property, but they put the houses there and not the golf, I think.  That's the priority for lots of his clients.

I was trying to get a job years ago [that never happened] on world-class land, where Tom Fazio was the client's first choice.  The only reason they talked to me about it was that the client was becoming frustrated with Fazio for never talking about what a good piece of ground it was ... all he talked about was that if they were totally committed to quality [i.e., had enough money], that he would build them something great.  Money was not an issue for this client, but it still disturbed him that the architect didn't seem to be enthused about the ground.  Maybe that is what has prevented him from getting more such sites.


*  I have to admit that it sometimes bothers me that my courses near the ocean are always rated above the ones that aren't.  It seems a bit too simplistic.  I've done some of my best work near the ocean, but it's not like we have a special playbook we only pull out for those occasions.  And it also discounts the enormous amount of hard work that so many people put in to make a course Great.  But, I've been the beneficiary of that bias, and I really like working next to the ocean, so I'm probably the last person who should be complaining about it.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2012, 07:50:11 AM by Tom_Doak »

Andy Troeger

Re: Fazio's Top 5
« Reply #74 on: July 31, 2012, 08:33:07 AM »
Fazio has worked on some pretty good pieces of land. Gozzer Ranch with views of lake Couer d'Alene has to be among the best for that, especially since it doesn't seem to be as severe as some of his other properties. Victoria National had some cool features but I'm guessing also challenges in routing around the existing waterways/cuts.  I'm not sure the land is as critical for Fazio because he creates so much anyway, but I thought he was a little more restrained at Gozzer when he had more to work with. 


Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back