[cary lichtenstein]

Fazio has somethng like 18 top courses in GW and 10 or so in GD. How does the Treehouse rate his top 5 in order: 1 thru 5

[David Wigler]

Cary,

I am a huge Fazio fan.  This is a brutal exercise because I have not seen some of his best but for me:

1. Shadow Creek
2. Victoria National
3. Glenwild
4. Flint Hills National
5. Querencia

close 6th - World Woods Pine Barrens, Black Diamond Ranch, Preserve.

Full disclosure - I have not seen these courses, which GW put in the top 100: Wade Hamptons, Dallas National, Karsten, Galloway, Briggs, Trump, Forest Creek, Jupiter Hills, Estancia, Sage

[Jim Franklin]

Here's mine:

1. Victoria National
2. Shadow Creek
3. Wade Hampton
4. Dallas National
5. The Preserve

[Tom_Doak]

David W:  I haven't seen Glenwild or Flint Hills National [although I would be curious to see the latter, because I did routings for that property for Perry Dye a long time ago].

However I have seen Querencia, and I'm shocked you put it above Pine Barrens or even Jupiter Hills.  It would be pretty near the bottom of my own list of Fazio courses, and it's a cartball hater's dream.

A prediction, though:  from what I saw of it, the Fazio course at Pronghorn will wind up in his top five when it's complete.

[David Wigler]

Tom,

One of the things that I think Fazio does better than anyone I have ever seen is build cart paths that do not intrude upon play.  Victoria National is the best example I have ever seen of a full cart ball course where you walk off and cannot think of a single path.  Without cart ball, I believe the site at Querencia could not have been turned into a golf course.

What turned me on the most was the greens.  If I have one criticism of Fazio, it is that (As a general rule) I find his greens to be simplistic.  World Woods is a great example of this, as the greens frankly I find to be rather plain - and I believe they stand out even more becuase of how interesting the course is from tee-to-green.  He lacks your flare for complex greens or Dye's for challenging greens.  Querencia IMO has the best set of greens that Fazio has ever built.  They are challenging, diverse and have both subtle and complex breaks and actually require some thought on positioning.  By combining his flare for golf art and dramatic vistas with optimizing a cool but severe site and actually building a world class set of greens positioned this course IMO above WWPB (I have not seen Jupiter Hills).  Does that make sense?

[Wayne Freeman]

Maybe someone can tell me what I missed at World Woods Pine Barrens last year on my trip to Florida.  I don't understand why it's so highly ranked.   I thought most of the holes were so ordinary.   I don't think is comes anywhere close to Victoria National or Shadow Creek.  

[Jim Franklin]

Wayne -

I'm with you. I liked it when I first played there, but have been back several times and like it less and less. The more I play some of his other places, the further it drops.

[John Kirk]

Tom Fazio's Alotian Club in Arkansas also opened recently to great acclaim.  It received Golf Digest's Best New Private course for 2005.

I have to try some Fazio courses, and see what all the fuss is about.  I get to play The Quarry at La Quinta in a couple weeks.

[A_Clay_Man]

Victoria National is the best example I have ever seen of a full cart ball course where you walk off and cannot think of a single path.  

David, Is this a typo? VN a cartball course? I respectfully disgree.

Wayne Freeman, imho WWPB, has fantastic greens & great par 3's. Recovery from the pine barrens, is almost always doable and aesthetically, with the PVesque sandy areas, is a large part of a great facility.  

[Mike_Sweeney]

Wayne -

I'm with you. I liked it when I first played there, but have been back several times and like it less and less. The more I play some of his other places, the further it drops.

Interesting. I am headed back in early April because I did like it so much last year. Will report back.

[Tom_Doak]

David:  To be honest, Querencia was such a tough test of driving [driving the GOLF CART] that I was never in the frame of mind to remember a green.  Nor do I remember very many particular holes on the course, except for the long par 5 (#4 ?) which they use in their advertisements with a 400 mm zoom photo to make it look like they're somewhere near the ocean.

You are right that Tom Fazio is excellent at hiding cart paths.  One of his associates told a contractor friend of mine that hiding the cart paths was the most important part of their design!  I just have other priorities.

[David Wigler]

Victoria National is the best example I have ever seen of a full cart ball course where you walk off and cannot think of a single path.  

David, Is this a typo? VN a cartball course? I respectfully disgree.

Adam,

I think you missed my point or I misunderstand the definition of a cartball course.  I thought a cartball course is a course where there is cartpath from the clubhouse around 18holes and back.  If that is the definition, then yes VN is a cartball course.  I have played it 6 times and walked each time.  If the definition is a course that can only be played in a cart (Or only played by a sane person in a cart - see Kapalua) than VN is not a cartball course but I still believe Fazio is the best on the planet at hiding cart paths.

[Tim Pitner]

The best at hiding cart paths--talk about damning someone with faint praise.

[redanman]

Top 5 I can think of right now

Galloway - routing has serious flaws
Trump National - very versatile design
Victoria National - nice piece of land needs to lose some   trees/framing
Shadow Creek - Greater achievement than golf course
Butler/Jupiter Hills maybe

other comments

WWPB - agree familiarity breeds the blahs
Black Diamond Ranch Q - very over-rated/inconsistent/ several plays, too
The Preserve - among the best settings for a private enclave, needs more exciting greens
Atonyote - wonderful and fun, just not daring, unusually well routed
Forest Creek - I hope the new one is as good as is said .. .. ..


and one no one ever talks about

WDW Osprey Ridge - easily best at the house of the mouse and good consistent architecture, overlooked

I've played only 35 or 40, so I'm no Matt Ward

[scott_wood]

so I'm no Matt Ward

Bill, really???  
(Matt...no offense )

[mark chalfant]

ive only seen a few.........

Trump Bedminster: excellent land, variety, walk in the park
WWPB
Black Diamond  Quarry........front nine is quite good
WW Rolling Oaks
Hudson
Pelican Hill



I hope to see Galloway, Glenwild, and Dallas National

[Wayne Freeman]

John Kirk-  I'll be interested to hear your take on The Quarry-  it is a stunning setting right up against the mountains behind PGA West -  I thought it was super but a little too Hollywood for me-  Remington statues galore with some contrived water effects.  There was however apparently no budget and Fazio had free reign to do whatever he wanted. I think it was something like $150K per person to join originally.  A buddy of mine was one of about 50 investers who put up 1 mil each for a lot and membership.  He sold his lot and already has made a bundle.  

[David Kelly]

Black Diamond Ranch Q - very over-rated/inconsistent/ several plays, too
The Preserve - among the best settings for a private enclave, needs more exciting greens

I agree completely with both assessments. While the quarry holes at Black Diamond Ranch are spectacular the rest of the course is just hit and miss.

The Preserve's greens were very repetitive with every one seeming to have a built in backstop.

My top 3 would be:
WWPB
Galloway
Estancia

[Pete Buczkowski]

WDW Osprey Ridge - easily best at the house of the mouse and good consistent architecture, overlooked

Bill,

I'll take you to task on this one.  I likely have more rounds on Osprey than any other GCAer.  

Chief limitations of the course:

- ~800 yard long cart path through wetlands separate 1,2,17,18 from the rest of the course...big time flow problem.
- majority of course will never play firm (with the exception of 11-13).  Other courses in the area can play firm contrary to popular opinion.
- Green contours are very ordinary.  WWPB has a lot more character, and not everybody is high on those surfaces
- First 8 holes are very mediocre from a design perspective, though fine enough to play and definitely pretty.  The front nine is no better than Doak 3 to me.  Holes 1, 2, 6, 8 are just boring, and there's not much architecturally to 3, 4, 5, or 7 either.  I challenge you to pick out one hole that stands out in this opening 8.

The last 10 are pretty solid, as long as you don't mind having water in play on the last four holes.  I am a big fan on 9 and 11-17.  I'm mixed on 10; the raised right portion of the green makes for some interesting approaches (and thought off the tee), but that goes away if the pin is left.  

The green shapes are varied on the back...the short holes of 11 & 15 bring some interesting angles into play.  However, they don't have interesting contours.  The par 5's make you think about your second shot, whether its a layup or a go at the green.  And 17 is a fun long par 3, with a great green that can offer a lot of excitement.

But overall, this is a fine resort course, but I don't even think its as good as UNC Finley, which most GCAers dislike.  I'd give Osprey a Doak 4, maybe 5 if feeling generous.  And I like Fazio's work and spend many afternoons on this course.  Please tell me, what do you find so underrated about the course?  They do charge $175, and got a resort Gold Medal from Golf Magazine after all.

[Jason Topp]

I'm a bit surprised that Ventana Canyon - Mountain is not on anyone's list.  Of the 5-10 Fazio courses I have played (including Shadow Creek), it is my favorite.

[Sean Leary]

Does Fazio have the greatest number of very good (and better) courses of all the modern designers?  Obviously he does a ton of courses and his work is often repetitive, but has he built many "bad" or even mediocre courses? Obviously with what he charges, he shouldn't but it seems like he has a lot of very good stuff that may not break into the Top 100 realm, but are still really good...

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Fazio is the king of the 5 to 7 range on the Doak Scale, with many more 5's than 7's.

Very few of his courses venture either above or below that range, for some of the reasons outlined on this thread with some notable exceptions like Ridge at Back Brook on the low end and say, World Woods Pine Barrens on the high end.

That being said, I'm a big fan of Trump National, Galloway National, and some others but would love to see his courses  get;

1) More strategic
2) More interest in green complexes
3) More raw in presentation.

However, none of these three will likely happen when the primary focus is too often on the framing of the picture.

[John Kirk]

John Kirk-  I'll be interested to hear your take on The Quarry-  it is a stunning setting right up against the mountains behind PGA West -  I thought it was super but a little too Hollywood for me-  Remington statues galore with some contrived water effects.  There was however apparently no budget and Fazio had free reign to do whatever he wanted. I think it was something like $150K per person to join originally.  A buddy of mine was one of about 50 investers who put up 1 mil each for a lot and membership.  He sold his lot and already has made a bundle.  

I am looking forward to playing it.  I will report my findings in a couple weeks, either to you or the group as a whole.

My friend joined recently, probably for $150k.

Among Fazio courses, I've only played the two World Woods courses, which I liked about equally.  There was something quite pleasant about the simple Rolling Oaks course.  Not as dramatic or inspiring as the Pine Barrens, but very pleasant.  I was out there all by myself, playing a match between the Titleist 2 and the Titleist 4.  Nice day.

[redanman]

Please tell me, what do you find so underrated about the course?  They do charge $175, and got a resort Gold Medal from Golf Magazine after all.

It never ever gets a mention here and has routing problems just like a lot of other Fazios revered here.  It's not top anything except tope surprize that there's this many good golf holes at WDW.  The Palms is jsut awful, the Pines is much better,, albeit easier for the pros if that matters, but overall, since golf is so bleepin' expensive these days I guess that $175 is probably the tare these days.  

I'll admit that it's been a couple of years, but most of the course hole for hole is almost as good as the courses at BDR and WW, so that's under rated in my book.  I certainly don't mean to imply that it's world-class, just never mentioned.  Fazio builds a lot of good golf courses all using a formulaic style and Osprey is a nice place to slip out at WDW, better than a lot of "famous" courses.

BTW, Cirba has a nice take there.

[pacgd]

I'll put one Fazio course out there that, for reasons I don't know, hasn't seemed to be noticed on any of the "Top 100" or "Best New" lists, but I think should be included among his handful of best and that's Shady Canyon in SoCal.  Other than 2 short par-fours on the front that look and play very much alike (4 & 7), it's very good.  Noticeably absent from Shady Canyon is alot of the framing that Fazio is criticized for.

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