[Tim Gavrich]

I was wondering if anyone had any opinions/info on the following golf courses' merits.  These are all courses I might play in tournaments this summer.  They are:

- WindStone GC; Ringgold, GA
- Twin Orchard CC (Red); Long Grove, Ill
- Palmetto Hall Plantation (Arthur Hills); Hilton Head, SC
- Bellefonte CC; Ashland, KY
- Northwood Club; Dallas, TX
- Independence GC; Midlothian, VA
- The International (Pines); Bolton, MA--I've seen about 8 of the holes.  Is it a good golf course aside from the longest-in-the-world gimmick?
- French Creek GC; Elverson, PA
- Golf Club of Avon; Avon, CT (I live in Avon and yet have never played it.  Go figure)
- Eisenhower Park (White); East Meadow, NY
- Ruby Hill GC; Pleasanton CA

I appreciate any information on the quality and merits of any of these golf courses.  Thank you very much.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tim,
For French Creek, check out http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14911

We had a GCA outing there a couple of years ago.  Unfortunately, the course was very wet (we just had rec'd 2.5 inches of rain, and a couple of the fairways had recently been aerated), but we had a great time.

My wife and I voulenteered one day during last year's AGJA qualifier.  Some really good golf played, but those that used their head and strategized did the best.  I think the best score for the older boys was around 65 (?).  Some of the less skilled scored well into the 90s.

You're more than welcome to play with us if you and your family are ever down Philly way.

[PThomas]

fwiw, Tim, I live in Chicago and have never heard of Twin Orchard  

[redanman]

The Art Hills course at PHP is one of the more interesting course on the HHI.

[Evan_Green]

Ruby Hill is a very long and hard Nicklaus course that measures 7,600 with a course rating of something like 77. Not one par 4 under 400 yards from those tees! Would they have the juniors play that far back? Even the next set of tees which I played from was 7,200 with only one par 4 under 400 (and I think it was in the 390's!).

Its a nice club, wonderful facilities and there are some interesting holes, but if you're going to play a tournament there you had better be able to hit it long if you want to do well.

[cary lichtenstein]

Twin Orchard is in Long Grove, Illinois. It has 2 courses, a red and a white. They have some nice topography. Short by today's standards. Both very nice old courses members courses, nothing special architecturally.

[Brad Tufts]

As for the International, its not that great.  Their new course, the Oaks (Fazio) is much better, but obviously the event isn't on that one...

[PCCraig]

I've played twin orchard a few times, I think there are only 27 holes there, and it's overall nothing special.

They used to play the Chicago AJGA at Winnetka GC. What tourn. is it exactly?

Good luck...

[Dave Esler]

Tim,

Spent a lot of time at Twin over the last few years as we redesigned all 36 to some degree also constructing 18 of the 36 (9 red, 9 white) through our Vintage Golf Construction, LLC.   It is a good site by Chicago standards, rolling, treed (yes still a little overplanted, especially Silver Maples, but we've made progress-superintendent Dave Blomquist is a player and he "gets it")

We originally proposed to address the infrastructure issues, major drainage, flooding 3-4 holes, and a 170 yard driving range (now has a net?). Major Relocating and engineering proved too expensive in the short run (long run?), but we did rebuild all bunkers, many tees, and strengthened the weakest holes of the White.  The Red is the defacto mens course, the White generally the ladies'.

We remade the Red into a solid, no nonsense Raynor aesthetic- grass faced bunkers biting into the fairways and rectangular tees.  We didn't have a lot of rope for major strategic changes, but it will identify a fine player/ball striker with solid par 4s, a few good short 4s.  GCA's would like it, but it doesnt have the room (nor member mandate) for fine fescue roughs and major tree work.-maybe over time.  Green is generally a good word here, but Blomquist will push it a little.

The White is more eye candy, Fazio looking flashed bunkers, bent grass runoffs and shorter holes.  Hard core GCAers would not, but the members love it.

Both courses were very similar visually before we started, giant banal evolved clam shell bunkers, visually vanilla straight line fairways, zillion garbage trees...
It says plenty to me that the members almost unanimously love the work we did. (I assure you this is not always the case with our existing course work!)  Also noted, MJ joined immediately following the completion of the work-I have no idea what that says, if anything.  He's kind of recognizable at this predominately Jewish club.  We had a great time working there once the super was replaced.  They treated me great, and Im sure they will you all as well.  

Check out Luke's Italian Beef straight South on NE corner of 12 and Hick's, south of LakeCook Road.  
Does the AJGA still arange housing like in the "old days"?

More available on request.

Dave Esler

[Dan_Callahan]

I played the Golf Club at Avon last year and didn't like it. There are 27 holes that are set up in three interchangeable sets of 9.

The first 9 I played (white course, maybe?) was very, very claustrophobic. I pulled my tee shot just slightly on the opening hole. When I got to my ball, I realised that if it had made it through a single row of pine trees it would have brained a guy putting on a green that couldn't have been more than 15-20 yards from my fairway.

The second 9 for us was across the street and was significantly better, although still not good. A member told me it was a Cornish addition that was newer than the rest of the course.

There was one interesting par 5 on the back 9 that was slightly downhill, very long, and played into the wind and setting sun—I think I walked away with an 8. Otherwise, a very forgettable course in an otherwise attractive setting. I would think that in an AJGA event, the scores would be very low. There just wasn't much to challenge the good golfer.

[Mike Benham]

Ruby Hill is a very long and hard Nicklaus course that measures 7,600 with a course rating of something like 77. Not one par 4 under 400 yards from those tees! Would they have the juniors play that far back? Even the next set of tees which I played from was 7,200 with only one par 4 under 400 (and I think it was in the 390's!).

Its a nice club, wonderful facilities and there are some interesting holes, but if you're going to play a tournament there you had better be able to hit it long if you want to do well.

I have played Ruby Hill about 30 times and I would be shocked if they pushed the tees all the way back for an AJGA event.  Even from the 7,000 yard tee boxes, I never considered it a long course but the course is suspectible to wind primarily on the backside from 15 through 18.

There is a variety of elevation change on the course, a few quirky holes (a dogleg par-3 around a large oak) and all of the par-5 are reachable in two with the right conditions with a couple of them being decent risk/reward holes.

The fairways are on the wide so accuracy off the tee, except for a couple of holes is not required.

The greens are on the flat side but they can be made very quick and the roll very true.

Bermuda tees, fairways and roughs, no overseed and bent greens.

Ps:  And for Huckaby's sake, the 3rd hole at Ruby Hill is in my trophy case as my only hole-in-one.

[michael_j_fay]

The Avon course is a very mediocre venue. There are about three good holes in 27 and 24 average to lessthan average.

The International is just plain ridiculous. I am certain they won't play the whole course (over 8,000 yards) but the course will still have a green that is 100 yards deep and other such nonsense. It is a waste of space as golf courses go but a nice experimental station for Scotts. I have not played the new course at the International and I have heard it is worth the trip.

[Tim Gavrich]

I played the Golf Club at Avon last year and didn't like it. There are 27 holes that are set up in three interchangeable sets of 9.

The first 9 I played (white course, maybe?) was very, very claustrophobic. I pulled my tee shot just slightly on the opening hole. When I got to my ball, I realised that if it had made it through a single row of pine trees it would have brained a guy putting on a green that couldn't have been more than 15-20 yards from my fairway.

The second 9 for us was across the street and was significantly better, although still not good. A member told me it was a Cornish addition that was newer than the rest of the course.

There was one interesting par 5 on the back 9 that was slightly downhill, very long, and played into the wind and setting sun—I think I walked away with an 8. Otherwise, a very forgettable course in an otherwise attractive setting. I would think that in an AJGA event, the scores would be very low. There just wasn't much to challenge the good golfer.

I guess I'd be better off playing in the concurrent tournament at Pine Needles, then .

Re: Twin Orchard-- How long is the Red Course? Narrow or wide, big or small greens?

Has anybody played WindStone, Bellefonte, or Independence, by any chance?

Thanks for the info.

[Bill Gayne]

The Independence is a Fazio course outside of Richmond built with the VSGA. It has a headquarters, golf museum, first tee program, and training center.

[redanman]

If you play Palmetto Hall on purpose, you should go into a self-imposed GCA penalty box/exile of no less than 4 days.

Counselor Schmidt

That's a bit harsh.  There are two courses there.  The Cupp course, I can understand your comments, the Hills course is just a  decent, solid golf course.

[William King]

I've played the front 9 of Windstone (back was closed for aerification) and found it to be a nice track. Some memorable holes  (1 and 9 spring to mind) and a decent test. Conditioning was good when I played there (9-04).

[Tim Gavrich]

If you play Palmetto Hall on purpose, you should go into a self-imposed GCA penalty box/exile of no less than 4 days.

Counselor Schmidt

That's a bit harsh.  There are two courses there.  The Cupp course, I can understand your comments, the Hills course is just a  decent, solid golf course.

Well this begs the questions:

Counselor Schmidt: Why do you despise the Hills course so?  Are you not a fan of Mr. Hills' work in general?

Mr. BillV: What pleases you about the Hills course?

This will actually help me decide whether I should play at Palmetto Hall, which is about 3 hours from my family's place at Pawleys Plantation, or Bellefonte CC (which does not seem to have been played by many GCA members), a course that, from the limited info I have found, might be more suitable.

[SL_Solow]

Welcome to Dave Esler, an outstanding architect and good friend.  Both Twin courses are fairly narrow due to tree planting which Dave was not permitted to rectify.  However they are not claustrophobic.

[redanman]

HIlls at PHP?

Nice flow to the routing, no crazy or goofy holes, a couple of better-than-average par 5's, the usual water laden par 3 is there, too!

On the whole, it is fairly natural and uses low-level terrain fairly well.  The trees where used are sensible, low on the eye-candy stuff, over-shadowed by the famous geometric Cupp course, no one talks about ti.  Overall, nothing bad, several things pretty good.  I need the scorecard (at home) to give hole numbers, so I won't guess. Sorry it's been about 8 years.

[Matt_Cohn]

Tim,

A Q for you: when I played AJGA events, every single course was set up between 6,900 and 7,000 yards. It matter what the course was like, how long the course was from the tips, or where we played. Even in Denver where the ball goes 10% further, it was still 6,950!

If a course was 7,150 from the tips, they would play five or six of the longest holes from up-tees. They'd take out a lot of the variety of lengths of the holes.

Does the AJGA still follow this philosophy or do they allow for some variety in the holes and the yardages of different courses?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Northwood in Dallas, is a nice tight course, certainly Old School and for this part of the world good bent greens.

Well worth the visit, in my opinion.
The course has a rather strange routing, which is certainly one of it's quirks, but one thing is for sure, it will not be overpowered by the long hitters and accuracy will be  a premium.

If you are a good straight driver of the ball, sign up right now, as you will have a big advantage over the field.
Let me know if you play..

[michael_j_fay]

Is this the same Northwood that hosted the '52 US Open?

[Tim Gavrich]

Tim,

A Q for you: when I played AJGA events, every single course was set up between 6,900 and 7,000 yards. It matter what the course was like, how long the course was from the tips, or where we played. Even in Denver where the ball goes 10% further, it was still 6,950!

If a course was 7,150 from the tips, they would play five or six of the longest holes from up-tees. They'd take out a lot of the variety of lengths of the holes.

Does the AJGA still follow this philosophy or do they allow for some variety in the holes and the yardages of different courses?

Matt--
I think they do pretty much follow this when they play courses that are that long.  I played in one of their NIKE Series events last year (under-16), and Toftrees, which is as long as 7100 from the tips, if memory serves, was set up around 6650.  But keep in mind, that's for under-16s.

When they had a tournament at Hop Meadow a few years ago, the course played at less than the tips, at 6915.  I'd say the course was around 6750.  However, when I played in the qualifier at Hampton Hall (perhaps the least interesting Pete Dye golf course in existence, with one hole that I remember fondly), and the course, whose tips are  7400+, was playing just over 7000.  It was sure easy, though, as I shot 73 and lost in a 4-man playoff for the last two of 12 spots.  I believe that was the lowest qualifying score of any qualifier in the AJGA year last summer.  I think the AJGA is a little more flexible nowadays, depending on weather and course conditions.

Of course, most of the courses on my list are pretty short (Bellefonte is under 6100 from the tips, and all the others except Ruby Hill are less than 7000, I think).  I prefer shorter courses, as I tend to be more of a Fred Funk than a J.B. Holmes .

[mike_beene]

Yes,same Northwood.If you didn't know the routing,you would never figure it out.I have wondered but never asked if the order of holes was ever changed.Using the tunnels under Alpha disrupts the routing but probably beats getting robbed.

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