Latest Links Magazine - Ballyneal/Raters/Overrated

[Craig Van Egmond]

Just got the latest Links Magazine and they had a one page blurb about Ballyneal and at the end of the article they mentioned that until the membership fills up they may allow outside play.  Anybody know if this is true?

Also in this issue was the subject of raters/ratings. First of all George Peper apologizes for starting off this craze and admits that it is flawed and that no panels will ever get it right. He then goes on to discuss some of the courses that raters have missed like Kingsley, Black Mesa etc.  He also provides some top 10 lists for overrated/underrated courses.

Number 1 on the overrated list is #2.      Pine Valley also makes the list, I can't remember the others. I was not surprised about Pinehurst being on the list, but I did find the Pine Valley inclusion surprising.

Anybody else see this?  

[Tom_Doak]

That's a pretty weird article by George if he's discussing "courses the raters have missed" which he, himself, has not seen either.  I haven't seen the magazine yet, but he is relying on the same sort of second-hand information as any ranking system does.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Brian,

         Have the rules changed since Sand Hills  did this?  Dragon Ridge in Vegas allowed outside played until their membership reached a certain level.

[PThomas]

I remember one time Mr. Peper lamenting in print in Golf Mag  that he hadn't been to C Downs because it was located in a "center of commerce " like Frankfort....I wonder if he ever made the trip....

[Jim Franklin]

I hope so as the Downs is well worth a visit to Meatchicken.

[Kevin_Reilly]

My guess is that "outside play" means folks who have written a letter and asked to be able to play the course.  Similar to what Sand Hills did.

Not wide open like a public course.

[A_Clay_Man]

Craig, I'm not really sure how they are handleing the tire kickers. It was advised to me, from a very educated source, that charging an unaccompanied guest fee, that is refunded upon joining, is the best way to ensure serious inqueries only.
What do you think of that?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Adam,

          That makes sense to me.  

           Man, you gotta be getting stoked, the place looks awesome!  Will it open in April?

[Brad Klein]

George Peper, hmmmm, speaks about courses not being rated (high enough) that deserve ratings. He refers to both Kingsley (no. 22) and Black Mesa (no. 50) that are rated very high on the GW list.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Didn't Whitten do the same thing in GD a year or so ago?  He also mentioned Kingsley as one 'missed'.

[A_Clay_Man]

CE- Not April, but soon enough. I think the official opening is set for members in June, and the rest of the world, Sept.

Do most new clubs fill thier memberships before a ball has been struck? I doubt it. I feel very comfortable about my decision to join prior to playing. But hey, that could just be the kool-aid talking??
 
Were there pictures in the Links article? If so, Were they Dick Durance's?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Brad,

     For whatever reason George doesn't mention GW in his rants/article.

The article starts out "Twenty-seven years ago while editor-in-chief of Golf Magazine, I perpetrated something called the 'Top 100 Courses in the World." For that mistake and everything it has wrought, I am deeply and eternally sorry."

He then talks about raters from Golf mag, Golf Digest, etc.. the desire to build a top 100, golf course collectors and so on.

The 10 Most Overrated list is.

1. Pinehurst #2 - goofy golf
2. Royal Melbourne (composite) - a course no one plays
3. The Country Club (composite) - see above
4. Muirfield Golf - charmless
5. Baltusrol (Lower) - America's Muirfield
6. Augusta
7. Pine Valley - too many blind shots
8. Royal Troon
9. Seminole - great locker room, typical Florida course
10. The K Club - Dublin meets Doral

A quote - "No matter how experienced and knowledgeable, a selection panel will not --- cannot -- get the ratings right.

Some of the overlooked...

Links of North Dakota
Links at Crowbush Cove
Leatherstocking
The Sagamore
Wolf Creek
Black Mesa
Nanea
MPCC Shore
Harding Park
Montawk Downs
Pine Tree
Pine Needles/Mid Pines
Kingsley Club
Forest Dunes
Reflection Bay
Shore Gate
The Hermitage
GreyStone
Atlantic City Country Club
Quarry at Giants Ridge
Rustic Canyon
Pilgrims Run
Wolf Run
Pine Barrens
The Dunes Club
Wannamoisett

Basically he says to look beyond the Top 100, that 100 is too few, that for every ranked course there are many others worth checking out.

 

[Craig Van Egmond]

Adam,

     Yes there is a stunning picture, but it does not credit the photographer.

[Tom Dunne]

"Pine Valley--too many blind shots"

[Jason Blasberg]

Craig:

You're looking at the March/April issue?

I didn't get mine yet.

Jason

[Matt_Ward]

Have to weigh in with some of the "over-looked" courses that were mentioned.

Montauk Downs is a wonderful layout but still is a good ways away from being mentioned in a national consideration aspect. Yes, they have made improvements but still have more work to do before being touted as such. When the work is done then the layout should be assessed at that time for the kind of recognition it clearly has the potential to reach.

The Links of North Dakota at Red Mike Resort is also a fine course and clearly an outstanding one for North Dakota. It is truly overrated until you get to the par-5 7th hole. There are a number of good holes on the back side but anyone believing the golf there is a "must play" to get to the Williston area is in serious need of getting their brains checked. Isolation, in and of itself, is not reason to believe that superior golf will be found.

Leatherstocking and The Sagamore are two fine old school layouts in NY State, but once again it's more about the fascination with the layouts that have less of a national following and for good reason. In the area one should play both -- making a special visit from more than 200+ miles away. No way jose.

The mentioning of Shoregate (NJ) is also beyond a mere shaking back and forth of one's head. It is absolutely laughable. There you have a Ron Fream layout that basically throws into play a wide assortment of bunkers -- both real and improvised -- that strike the overkill theme to the max. A much better layout it would be if it followed the "less is more" maxim.

ACCC is a wonderful layout and kudos to Tom Doak for certainly improving what was there -- but the layout is not of the caliber to break into New Jersey's top ten courses IMHO -- let alone being considered for national honors.

If there was any course that was missed was the work Mike DeVries did with Greywalls at Marquette GC. Superb layout that has an infinite array of details on any number of holes played there.

One last comment on Black Mesa -- any publication that fails to have the course included among the top 25 best public courses in the USA is clearly clueless in truly knowing what superior golf is all about.

Another layout worthy of attention is Greg Norman's 18-hole layout at Redy Sky Ranch in Wolcott, CO. The Shark is rightly criticized for a number of his layouts but the Colorado gem possesses a first rate routing and a combination of holes that never disappoint.  

I don't disagree that there are a number of courses that are overlooked -- but being overlooked doesn't mean that a course is therefore a "must play" and requires a special out of the way trip to play it.

[Mark Brown]

Links magazine must critique all the rankings because they are too concerned about advertising reprecussions from doing them themselves.

[HamiltonBHearst]

Matt Ward


Where do you think Montauk Downs should be ranked relative to other NYS courses?  I will even stipulate that I will accept the best Reestoration effort ever.  Still not top 40 in NYS.

[Joel_Stewart]

First of all George Peper apologizes for starting off this craze and admits that it is flawed and that no panels will ever get it right.  

Did Peper start this or copy Golf Digest?  

All of the current publications are flawed in one form or another and or course no one will get it right, its subjective.

[PThomas]

I think you're right Joel...GD 's 1st list was America's 100 TOUGHEST courses, in the 1960s I believe, then was later changed to AMerica's Greatest...

[A_Clay_Man]

Someone posted a list from 39'. So, anyone who feels guilty for starting the windfall, is most likely dead.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Jason,

      Its the March 2006 issue.

[Jason McNamara]

    Yes there is a stunning [Ballyneal] picture, but it does not credit the photographer.

Going back to the other side of the pond, this issue has Aidan Bradley pics of Enniscrone.

Jason Mc.

[Nick Pozaric]

I love what they said about Augusta, "if its such a great course why do they change it every year."   I got a good laugh out of that one

[Matt_Ward]

Hamilton H:

I can't predict where Montauk would be rated until the couse is indeed updated / restored / modernized, call it what one will.

The existing layout has had some work done over the last few years but the layot still needs a healthy makeover. When RTJ designed the layout it was originally meant to be private but that changed very quickly because of economics. Truth be told, Rees Jones cut his teeth on the design and much of what is there comes from his handiwork.

The sad thing about Montauk is its potential. It will never be the "public" east end version of Shinnecock, National, etc, etc.
The bunkering needs to be ypated -- both in terms of placement and overall appearance. You also have greens that often require a full shoulder turn to get a 10-foot putt tothe hole on many days.

The land is indeed well done but a number of the holes need a bit more updating in terms of strategic qualities.

Montauk Downs has potential but the issue is whether or not the time, resources and vision can be applied. I'm an optimist at heart because clearly the possibilities are indeed present. Right now -- it is not in NY State's top 40 or cse to national honors as the magazine article implies IMHO. If a solid effort is carried out I think it's indeed likely it could rise to a level far beyond what you see today.