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Steve Curry

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Black Creek
« on: February 23, 2006, 09:58:03 AM »
As was mentioned in the Lookout Mountain thread here are some photos from Black Creek.






























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Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Black Creek
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2006, 02:58:10 PM »
Brian,

Brian Silva - Chattanooga, TN

Steve
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John Goodman

Re:Black Creek
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2006, 03:11:31 PM »
I have played very little Raynor (just Yale, though multiple times).  Why should I not be dismissive or critical of the engineered look?  Is it because it's fun and challenging to play?  (I buy into this as to some of Yale's holes, the biarritz in particular, but not all.)  Or do I just have an underdeveloped and undereducated sense of beauty?      
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Andy Hughes

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2006, 03:59:16 PM »
(Brian, we gotta work on your use of emoticons  ;))

Steve, thanks for posting. Looks like a very interesting course.  I keep feeling like I should turn up my nose when a course looks that 'artificial', but I just can't shake the feeling that I'd love to play 'em.
For example, the Biarritz looks not at all natural, but I am sure it is thrilling/fun to play.
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"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Michael_Stachowicz

Re:Black Creek
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2006, 04:08:47 PM »
It is funny, while you are playing (I am the one making the putt for the win) you don't notice how engineered the look is.

This is more extreme in its lines than any other Raynor course I have played, in fact I would say Raynor courses, maybe by virtue of their spectacular locations are extremely natural (Fishers, Lookout Mountain, Yale, Yeamans).  

I was surprised to find that one of the side benefits of the angularity is that it helps the first time visitor (to the course or to the strategic frame of mind) decifer the intentended strategy of the hole.  From the point of view that I had alot of fun navigating the bunkers and working the angles, it was a surperior golfing experience.  Man vs. Nature it was not like Lookout Mountain or Fishers, but golf as a playing field, a chess game, a ballpark it was very rewarding.
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Pete Lavallee

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2006, 05:14:09 PM »
I echo Michael's sentiment's; I played here last year and it was indeed the highlight golfwise for 2005. The course is an absolute blast to play. Kudo's to  Brian Silva for having the balls of steel necessary to build a "Raynor Replica" in today's market. Great photos Steve.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 05:15:03 PM by Pete Lavallee »
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"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Dan_Callahan

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2006, 05:21:18 PM »
I must admit, I love the look of those bunkers. However, there is something about square greens that just doesn't work for me. I came across one at Newport National that I found jarringly out of place. I don't recall such hard lines on any of the greens at Yale. Is that style typical of Raynor, or is it something that Silva brought on his own?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2006, 05:22:57 PM by Dan_Callahan »
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Joel_Stewart

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2006, 05:21:30 PM »
Quote from: Pete Lavallee on February 23, 2006, 05:14:09 PM
Kudo's to  Brian Silva for having the balls of steel necessary to build a "Raynor Replica" in today's market. Great photos Steve.

Was it Silva or the developer who knew something about Raynor?

The course does look interesting, the photos I have seen when it not dormant actually make it look more interesting.  I don't understand the green with the retaining wall and the water, looks more like Nicklaus.
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Pete Lavallee

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2006, 05:31:17 PM »
Joel,

The developers are members of Lookout Mountain, so yes they know a lot about Raynor. Silva had begun to emulate the Raynor style on Cape Cod National and Waverly Oaks in Mass. just previous to the Black Creek project. That is Black Creek in front of the rock retaining wall.
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"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

PThomas

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2006, 05:35:43 PM »
Dan - I gotta disagree re square greens ....I saw them at Chicago GC at the Walker cup and thought they were SO cool! 8)
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Black Creek
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2006, 09:44:57 AM »
The dormant bermuda highlights the sharp lines.  

Real property is generally square shaped.

Putting surfaces are real property.

Playing fields are generally square shaped.  

Putting surfaces are playing fields.

Therefore, putting surfaces should be square.

It's logical.

Mike

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Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Doug Braunsdorf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Black Creek
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2006, 10:13:52 AM »
In the pictures, the bunkers appear to all have straight, clean lines across the grass faces.  Is this true in person, or are there smaller contours to them that aren't discernible from the pictures vs seeing in person?  
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"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Dave Bourgeois

Re:Black Creek
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2006, 12:13:32 PM »
The sharp angles are actually sort of refreshing for me to see in comparison to what I most often play.  If the strategies and design are of great interest than that also takes away the feeling of a gimick corse.

There are plenty of courses that have that lovely framed look, at the expense of having interesting strategies and multiple ways of attacking a hole.  I like the engineered style provided its good GCA, and its nice to see that style come back a bit.
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tomgoutman

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2006, 01:33:08 PM »
I agree with Paul--very cool. All geometric shapes are found in nature--a circle is no more "natural" than a square.
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Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Black Creek
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2006, 01:39:57 PM »
All sorts of things are found in nature (crabgrass, bear shit, mud . . .). That doesn't mean you would necessarily want them on a golf course.
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tomgoutman

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2006, 01:51:37 PM »
Dan, that's my point. To criticize a course architectural feature (e.g., the squareness of a green) because it is not "natural" is absurd. It may be bad architecture, but not because it is not "natural."
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Steve Curry

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2006, 01:57:50 PM »
Often the sharp lines reflect those seen in the distant landscape.

Steve
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Pete Buczkowski

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2006, 02:32:16 PM »
Thanks for the photo tour Steve; some fine photography.  I sure miss playing from dry dormant Bermuda.  From what angle did you take that picture of the Biarritz?

Course looks like a lot of fun to play.  I'd be interested to hear a comparison to Mountain Lake, if anybody has played both.
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mike_malone

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2006, 02:38:20 PM »
 In the first picture I can't believe they triangulated that grass patch  on the patio ; a circular patch would have been a better complement to the rest of the course. What were they thinking about ?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2006, 02:39:34 PM by mayday_malone »
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AKA Mayday

Dan_Callahan

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2006, 02:48:53 PM »
Quote from: tomgoutman on February 24, 2006, 01:51:37 PM
Dan, that's my point. To criticize a course architectural feature (e.g., the squareness of a green) because it is not "natural" is absurd. It may be bad architecture, but not because it is not "natural."

I never said anything about them not being natural. I said they don't work for me.

I could care less if something is "natural" or not as it relates to a golf course. Green strips of grass running through desert valleys is remarkably unnatural, but in many cases it still works pretty well.

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Steve Curry

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2006, 07:20:33 PM »
Pete,

The bermuda was awesome to play on and the greens were excellent.

The tee on the Biarritz was at a slight angle and played straight on from the back.  The more forward you play the angle makes the front and back more distinct almost like two separate greens.  

Steve
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Mark Brown

Re:Black Creek
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2006, 12:34:49 AM »
Not my cup of tea. Nature doesn't have sharp edges and straight lines. Raynor isn't one of my favorite architects. I appreciate the courses he and Macdonald designed but I wouldn't copy them.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 12:36:53 AM by Mark Brown »
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Eric_Dorsey

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Re:Black Creek
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2006, 12:43:16 AM »
played 3 days in a the member-guest last April and thoroughly enjoyed this course.  It really opened my eyes to Raynor/McDonald's style of architecture.  I loved it.   What a wonderful mix of holes too.   ;)


here's my photos:

http://greenmambagraphics.com/gallery4.html
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Steve Curry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Black Creek
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2006, 02:43:46 PM »
The outlines of the mountain ridges are as sharp in contrast as the landscaped edges on the golf course.  I think the differentiation lies in the harmony of the course with the surrounding landscape.

Snowflake

What do others think of the punch bowl?  
Cheers,
Steve
« Last Edit: February 25, 2006, 02:46:15 PM by Steve Curry »
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