[Ryan Crago]

hold the phone.  

not only am i about to agree with JK   i'm about to defend sandpines... sorta.

yes.. opportunity lost... poor use of site.. potential unrequited. blah blah blah.  i hear it. i know it.

BUT.  Jordan, you paid $30.  $30!!!!  thats pretty darn good for "decent" (notice i didn't say world class) golf.  its a reasonably nice golf course, in reasonably good condition, with some reasonably interesting holes.  $30.

i think we're all spoiled here... many of us having played bandon, the old course, fabulous classic courses all over etc. and well, martin's thread today talks of cults (ya, i said it.), and we sure have our own right here.  sandpines IS NOT bandon.  it is not pine valley, or shinny, or even torrey pines.

it is not a destination (even though it may sell themselves as such).  it is not going to change the face of golf, or golf course architecture.  

to borrow a line from everyone's favourite hockey player Todd Bertuzzi... "it is what it is".  not all golf has to be perfect.  for $30 you can go and have fun, hit some shots about with some mates, and take a nice walk, in really, quite a nice place.  take it for what its worth.

we should be thankful for places like this.  not everyone can afford to play bandon everyday, and if joe blow from florence has a 10 year old son or daughter that wants to learn the game, why not?  it sure is better than the dog track i played growing up.  damn, its still better than a lot of dog tracks i still play.  

that being said, by no means do subscribe to not striving for the best in terms of design... however, it is what it is.

now taking cover,
rc.

[PThomas]

I cannot see why anyone would recommend it to anyone

My new found friends of the Pacific Northwest think it is a good value at $60 and a very nice place to stop on the way to Bandon.  To a man, they all like the place.  I trust them...it is a feepayer paradise.

they are certainly entitled to their opinions John

I will admit that the fact that it costs $60 makes it even less attractive to me!

[Jordan Wall]

30$ for Juniors, 55$ for adults, all the way up to 75$ and 90$ in the summer, plus prices going up due to expensive new clubhouse.

So it aint really cheap, plus most of the round the course was frozen--after driving within 20 yards of the first green I hit a little pitch that landed two feet from the hole and bounce past the back of the green--that is not good or fun, for 30$ or 50$

I mean, there were some good holes.  Yes, it is what it is, but man, it could of, and should of, been waaaaaaaaaaaay better.

btw, this also proves Gold Digest is dumb.  The 'Best New' (what does that even mean) courses I have played are so contrived it aint even funny!!

Sandpines isn't the best new anything...

[Kyle Harris]

So it aint really cheap, plus most of the round the course was frozen--after driving within 20 yards of thhe first green I hit a little chip that landed two feet from the hole and bounce past the back of the green--that is not good or fun, for 30$ or 50$

Jordan...

A chip from 20 yards out landing within 2 feet of the hole SHOULD bounce to the back of the green...

Did you mean pitch?

[Jordan Wall]

So it aint really cheap, plus most of the round the course was frozen--after driving within 20 yards of thhe first green I hit a little chip that landed two feet from the hole and bounce past the back of the green--that is not good or fun, for 30$ or 50$

Jordan...

A chip from 20 yards out landing within 2 feet of the hole SHOULD bounce to the back of the green...

Did you mean pitch?

Yea, pitch, whatever.

My bad.

There was a ridge about ten feet beyond the flag, so I figured if it didnt take one hop and stop it would come back off the ridge.  I got there too late to even putt, so it wasnt really my fault.  Anyways though, the ball actually bounced OVER the ridge beyond the green.  It was not good.

Sandpines wasnt that good either, at least for what it was supposed to be.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

After playing this course here is my opinion...

...decent, fun course, really not bad.

Sounds like you enjoyed it.[/color]

Mounds are stupid and are totally contrived.  

What seperates them from AWT's mounds ?

As for contrived, are any of the green complexes at NGLA natural ?[/color]

Bunkering was OK, but I was really dissapointed that the main bunkering didn't actually come from the dunes.  

What does that mean ?[/color]

The greens were decent, say for the fact they were frozen.  


What does the fact that the temperature was below freezing have to do with the contouring and architecture of the greens ?[/color]

I was totally bummed when I got to hole seven and to the left of it I saw huge sand dunes for a long ways but not at all used.  

How could they be used if they're not on the property ?

Are you familiar with oblique dunes, their shifting nature and the difficulty in stabilizing them ?[/color]

30$ so I didnt actually spend too much...whatever...

Also, holes 1, 2, 5, and 11 were dumb dumb dumb...two looks good picture-wise but is dumb and 11 has a huge eight foot grass pit beside it that was supposed to be a bunker...bad!!


I thought # 2 and # 11 were excellent holes.

Isn't # 11 a skyline green ?

What was dumb about # 1, 2, 5 and 11 ?
Please be specific.[/color]

Tell me, what went wrong here

It's simple, you were predisposed by others and didn't think for yourself.[/color]

[ed_getka]

OK Jordan now you've done it. Patrick is going to chew on you for a while. Although justifiably so until you give a little more detail on what you didn't like, other than being dumb and fake.

[Joe Hancock]

...... other than being dumb and fake.

Why is it that Hollywood types are so popular?

You know I love ALL Californians.....

Joe

[Joe Hancock]

John,

"Reproach" or "repair"?

Joe

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Come on guys, lay off poor Jordan.  He knows no more about architecture than the victim of pedophilia knows about sex...like he said..give the site to Doak or C$C and it would be a masterpiece.  The child has been swayed beyond reproach.

I think he was also unaware of the financial difficulties of the developer and the project.   A material factor.[/color]

[Anthony_Nysse]

Jordan,
  I read your originaly post where you state "give the site to Doak or C&C and it would be a masterpiece" and that kind of caught me by surprise for 2 reasons. It isn't the first time that Rees has had a great site and "swung and missed" in some  people's opinion. But I'm going to guess that he accomplished the owner(s) goals and abjectives in the course that he built, so from that angle, the course IS good. Matter of fact, he was chosen for a reason.
  Secondly, I'm sure that there are MANY architects that would love to have a chance at a site like that. I'm would venture to say that guys like Hanse, DeVries, Weed andt he late Mike Strantz would love a piece of property like that. Heck, Rees may even what another try at it. But to say "give the site to Doak or C&C and it would be a masterpiece," just makes me smile....this website can do that to you sometimes! You're young, so there is still time, but there is alot of good architecture out there that doesn't have their name on it, though they do good work as well. Form your own opinion afterwards cause believe it or not, guys with the last names of Fazio, Nicklaus, Dye, Engh, Silva, and Jones do tend to to turn in some good stuff, their bunkers have a more manicured look and the greens countors aren't quite as bold.  

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I can live with dumb and fake. lol It was a lost opportunity. And if Rees met the owners objectives then why is it still a second tier course with low low green fees and as yet no clubhouse.

[Anthony_Nysse]

Tiger,
  So I guess that if a course has low greens fees or no clubhouse, it is not sucessful?  ???Kingleys club worked without a clubhouse for years, maybe they still do and there is a ton a great golf for less than $50. I think that our own Jim Thompson can tell you that with Angels Crossing being voted #6 Best New Affordable in 2005, or Mike Young's Cateechee GC or Mike Devries' Pilgrim's Run. Don't forget that other GCA favorites Rustic Canyon, Black Mesa, Paa Ko Ridge AND The Warren Course have all won numerous awards for being stong architecture and affordable. One More-A little course called Wild Horse in NE.
  Sandpines has to have fulfilled many of the owner(s) abjectives, I mean, they can't be disappointed owning a course that is currently or at one time:
  "Ranked in the Top 100 You Can Play in the USA"
  "Ranked #1 in the Top 75 Affordable Courses in America"
  "Best New Public Golf Course in America"
  “America's 100 best course for $100 or less”
  "4 1/2-Star Rated 'Places to Play in USA'"

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Tommy_Naccarato]

No Comment.......

(Dr. Klein, are you proud of me or what? ? ? ? )  

[David Kelly]

btw, this also proves Gold Digest is dumb.  The 'Best New' (what does that even mean) courses I have played are so contrived it aint even funny!!

It seems to me that what Gold Digest means by "Best New" course is that they have judged a particular golf course to be the "Best" of the "New" golf courses.  But thats a wild stab and Gold Digest could be talking about something else completely for all I know.  

[Brad Klein]

Tommy, very proud of you. I can also feel your pain.You'll be glad to know there's an anonymous hotline to handle such emergency panic attacks. I've tried myself to call 1-800-SANDPINES but it's busy right now.

I gather from Tony Nysse's comments that he's never seen Sandpines. AllI can say is that when Sandpines came on board, the most exciting public course along the Oregon coast far as the raters was concerned was Salishan. They hadn't yet discovered Astoria G&CC.

Sandpines was the first totally manufactured modern course in the region. It still is.
 

[Anthony_Nysse]

Brad,
  You are correct. I have not scene Sandpines, though I've been on this website long enough to see every pic and aerial and have seen some holes used for advertisement. What I'm getting at is that the the comment that Jordan made and also that the owner may have gotten what he wanted. I've seen and played Ocean Forest and I tell people that OF is a top 25 site, with a top 500 course on it. It's very well manicured, it's challenging, quiet and on the ocean. I'm sure that the owner got what he wanted and is happy. OF has garnered many awards as well. This is the same with Sandpines. This could have been a "homerun" golf course. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. We need not forget that this dicsussion group is special in the fact that most on here enjoy the "unkept" look, while many other don't understand what the hype is. Is Sandpines similar to OF? Same time frame of architecture.....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Brad Klein]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder if the beholder is standing in Palm Springs or the Bonneville Salt Flats and stumbles upon Sandpines. On the Oregon coast, with those dunes, and with that finishing threesome around that lake?

Tony, you're description of Ocean Forest is perfect. Now consider this. Ocean Forest at least kept its native contours, and you have the holes that go down to the river (5), play along it (13) or brush alongside the ocean (18). There's subdued mounding out there, and what Rees did was take the native dunes and turf them over completely and make them look like his mounds - but on a softer scale than was his usual style then, without the rows  upon rows and mounds of parallel mounds that was his mantra in those days and that he did to excess at Sandpines. There's a course he did just outside the gates of Disneyworld with all of those parallel mounds (can't remember the name right now). That's the model for what he created at Sandpines. Luckily, he's moved beyond that kind of manufactured symmetry, but at Sandpines he did it to excess. Even he's learned from that.

[Mike_Cirba]

Brad,

Can I throw you a rope?  I sense you're starting to get sucked into the mire that is the discussion of Sand Pines and the perplexing original work of Rees Jones!  

Better call that emergency number.  

Me?  I'm off to my daily 12-step Merion bunker withdrawal meeting.

[Garland Bayley]

...
So it aint really cheap, plus most of the round the course was frozen--after driving within 20 yards of the first green I hit a little pitch that landed two feet from the hole and bounce past the back of the green--that is not good or fun, for 30$ or 50$
...

Jordan,
To become a good player, you will have to learn to study the conditions and adjust your game for them. Even if it was not frozen, you would have had the same experience. The one thing I would trade on my home course here in the NW for is the greens at Sandpines. Here when I hit the green with an approach, I find a small crater on the green. At Sandpines, I could not even find the ball mark.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Brad Klein,

There's no doubt that the mounding at Sandpines is excessive, but, a good deal of that mounding is beyond the areas of play.

Everyone focuses on the backround or perimeter and fails to examine the individual holes and their features.

To start with, I'd be anxious to hear the criticism with respect to holes 1-6

[Garland Bayley]

Hey Patrick,

Weren't you paying attention. #5 plays over a contrived lake and is dumb, dumb, dumb. It should have been a blind shot over a huge sand dune that was somehow imported into the forest.

[Brad Klein]

Mike Cirba, thank you for that reminder.

Pat, I'm done here with this.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike Cirba stole my thunder by mentioning a 12 step program regarding Merion. I wouldn't mind being the founding member of Sandpines Anonymous...

Pat, I still can't believe your trying to defend this golf course....


Oppps! I just lost my abstinence! I have to do my first 30 days again without ever thinking Sandpines or even mentioning the name Rees Jones.

God, Please grant me the serenity.......

[Kyle Harris]

I don't necessarily think Pat is trying to defend the course, just trying to cut through the mire that is the "This is dumb I hate it" tripe that gets slung around on here every now and then.

Frank and detailed critiques are good for architecture.

The automatic gainsaying of anything an architect does is not.

That's not an argument, that's just contradiction.

I came here for an argument!

This, this is just abuse.

 

(Anybody who gets that should IM me)

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