Morgan Creek G&CC

« **on:** February 21, 2006, 04:57:27 PM »

Here are some pictures I took yesterday at Kyle Phillips' Morgan Creek G&CC near Sacramento, CA. The shaping work he has done is really cool.

Unfortunately there is some rather ugly housing on the course which I didnt both to take pictures of, but Phillips did a very nice job here.

« **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2006, 05:00:11 PM »

Evan:

I had the good fortune in playing the course last year and while the housing is clearly an issue -- especially with the front side -- the detailing and level of hole design is clearly there for anyone to see.

I know there is not consensus on Morgan Creek -- anyone can check the past files for the specific comments. I really enjoyed the layout and have to say the course easily as enough muscle to challenge one of the other courses I really liked the greater Sacramento area -- Winchester in nearby Auburn.

One other thing -- the housing on the back side is much less an issue.

« **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2006, 05:05:52 PM »

I did get one of the housing actually...

Take a look (I think on athe left side of about #6) - They dont even try to hide it or make it blend in:

This is not Phillips fault, of course. The work he did was superb.

« **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2006, 05:17:58 PM »

Evan:

I don't blame Kyle because of the real estate motives of the ownership. Given the terrain which is basically flat -- he did a superb job with a solid contrats in holes. I wasn't enamored with the routing plan for the front -- it follows too much of a predictable out and back flow. Nonetheless, the par-4 9th is one of the best holes on the layout.

« **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2006, 07:22:08 PM »

Just out of curiousity, what is with the pond in the first photo? Is the pond indigenous or was it added as part of the construction process? Do you think that if it is former, is that something that should have been added?

Nice to see there is a bit of decent civilization located in and around Sacramento. Now, if we could only close down the Capitol and L Street between the Memorial and Labour day holidays...

As to the housing, while the housing may not look desirable, every time I go to Sacto on lobbying, it totally amazes me how many homes have been added between downtown Sac and Arco Arena--the area in short order will be completely full. I have even read of plans to add thousands of more housing units NORTH of Arco, right near the airport. That area, by the way, is full of rice fields and is part of a flood plain.

« **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2006, 07:57:17 PM »

Quote from: peter_mcknight on February 21, 2006, 07:22:08 PM

Just out of curiousity, what is with the pond in the first photo? Is the pond indigenous or was it added as part of the construction process? Do you think that if it is former, is that something that should have been added?

I would be suprised if it was a natural pond - its actually quite large, but I dont know for sure whether its natural or not. It comes into play on the 2nd shot on the hole you see in the foreground which is #10, a par 5 as well as the hole you can see in the distance, a bohemoth par 4, #11.

The water features on the course arent my favorite part of it - the same purpose probably could have been served by making the lake a high native grass area and would have looked better.

« **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2006, 08:20:28 PM »

Just home from work and saw this thread.

I had the pleasure of working on the construction side of this course with Kyle Phillips.

I'll give everyone a recap of the photos.

Photo 1
Number 10 looking back from the green across the lake to number 11 green.

Photo 2
Number 11 green taken from short and right a true saddle green.

Photo 3
Number 13 from the tee a quality par 4 with a wonderfully angled green to the line of play.

Photo 4
The left fairway bunker on thirteen one of my favorite bunkers on the course.

Photo 5
The green complex to the long par five 14th three tiered with the lowest tier being in the middle of the green.

« **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2006, 08:33:40 PM »

Sorry guys

Photo 6
View from tee on the par 4 second.

Photo 7
The green complex to number two the green contours were existing when Kyle drew his first sketches of this hole and shaped in the other features.

Photo 8
View towards the green on the par five third, from the right side.

Photo 9 & 10 the par four eighth. From right side of fwy and just short and left of the green respectively.

Guys no lake was existing on this course as it went to creating the housing pads and the golf course.

« **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2006, 09:34:44 PM »

Love the double plateau green. Wow!

Not so crazy about the sharp edges in Photo #7.

But it does look great in general.

Public? Green fees? Typical of California, I'll bet it's walking any time.

Future No Cal KP - MacKenzie's Haggin Oaks and Kyle Phillips' Morgan Creek?

« **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2006, 09:37:42 PM »

Bill - it is a private course, but they allow public play on Monday only for $95.

Its very walkable

« **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2006, 10:15:07 AM »

Could that pin location in the 2nd photo be ANY closer to the front edge? Yikes!!!

Like Bill, I love that green complex in the 5th photo...almost like a Biarritz green turned sideways to the line of play. Looks quite interesting.

« **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2006, 11:44:24 AM »

Quote from: Bill_McBride on February 21, 2006, 09:34:44 PM

Love the double plateau green. Wow!

But it does look great in general.

Public? Green fees? Typical of California, I'll bet it's walking any time.

Future No Cal KP - MacKenzie's Haggin Oaks and Kyle Phillips' Morgan Creek?

Bill:

I suggested it as a KP site last year but was voted down. It would be a great site because Kyle's office is across the street and we could have had him speak.

Its a private course with only a few members and as a result they allow public play almost anytime. Its walkable but with the Sacramento heat most people ride. They have nice pull carts available if you go off in the morning.

The shaping is really something, Kyle tried to make it into a english heathland course and succeded. The bad news is the course is not doing very well financially which is true in the entire Sacramento area.

Next year I'll vote for this course as a site for KP along with a new course at Cache Creek casino designed by Brad Bell. Furthermore I'll have Kyle set up rounds at Del Paso the Fowler course he remodeled which has created quite a bit of discussion here on GCA.

« **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2006, 11:48:27 AM »

Joel - you just earned yourself organizer status for KP-VI. Make all that happen, do all the legwork and who's gonna go against you?

It all sounds VERY good to me, for oh so many reasons - but you can likely guess the main one.

TH

« **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2006, 11:53:28 AM »

What is the current status of Del Paso? When is it scheduled to re-open?

« **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2006, 01:04:18 PM »

Quote from: Evan_Fleisher on February 22, 2006, 10:15:07 AM

Could that pin location in the 2nd photo be ANY closer to the front edge? Yikes!!!

Like Bill, I love that green complex in the 5th photo...almost like a Biarritz green turned sideways to the line of play. Looks quite interesting.

Evan, Evan, Evan,
CLEARLY a GATE hole...

Mr Phillips knows a thing or two about Scottish golf!

FBD.

« **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2006, 01:15:10 PM »

I'm hoping that 80 years from now, a Fowler ancestor comes in and completely rerouts the course and changes the entire esthetic.

« **Reply #16 on:** February 22, 2006, 03:05:39 PM »

Quote from: Martin Bonnar on February 22, 2006, 01:04:18 PM

Quote from: Evan_Fleisher on February 22, 2006, 10:15:07 AM
Could that pin location in the 2nd photo be ANY closer to the front edge? Yikes!!!

Like Bill, I love that green complex in the 5th photo...almost like a Biarritz green turned sideways to the line of play. Looks quite interesting.

Evan, Evan, Evan,
CLEARLY a GATE hole...

Mr Phillips knows a thing or two about Scottish golf!

FBD.

My bad, Martin!

Funny...I do not remember this hole from North Berwick. Did I somehow sleep though it? What is the "angle of attack" for the above pictured green?

« **Reply #17 on:** February 22, 2006, 03:16:47 PM »

Evan, that is the 16th, immediately following the Redan which may have clouded your visions with the tears of Joy!

The deep swale (3' minimum) bisects the green front to back, ie at right angles to the play into the green from right side of the fairway.

The green at Morgan Creek is not a "sideways Biarritz" or Gate hole a la North Berwick, but a MacDonald/Raynor classic, the Double Plateau. Yale #17 is a double plateau green. The green is wider than deep, and there's a higher plateau at each side of a lower section down the middle. As I recall the swale is not nearly as deep as that at the Gate Hole or on most Biarritzes.

Almost every MacD/Raynor has a Double Plateau, I'll have to get out George Bahto's book and check it out.

I'll bet Geoff Childs can post a photo of #17 Yale very quickly, in fact I saw one on GCA not long ago.

« **Reply #18 on:** February 22, 2006, 03:36:01 PM »

Bill,

Thanks for the North Berwick update and the golf hole explanation.

If I may ask...can you explain a little further about the differences vetween a biarritz and double plateau green? Does it have to do with the depth of the swale, the green's orientation to the line of play? Maybe both?

If the 16th at NB is a double plateau and is played in the orientation of a biarritz hole (with swale perpendicular to line of play) how can that be? I be con-fu-sed!!!!!!!!!!!!

One last thing...what is a GATE hole and how does it differ from the above?

« **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2006, 07:46:33 AM »

Evan,
from the West Links website:

I think that shows the line nicely from tee to green.

The Website has some nice pics/hole plans for comparison. Boy, I MUST get back over there and play it again soon. Seeing these plans/images reminds me of how much FUN it is!

http://www.northberwickgolfclub.com

'GATE' probably because there's a GATE in the OB wall behind the green (if memory serves...!)

FBD.

« **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2006, 07:55:40 AM »

Martin

I always thought gate referred to the gate in the wall which the tee shot is hit over. What a great course!

Ciao

Sean

« **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2006, 07:59:03 AM »

Quote from: Sean Arble on February 23, 2006, 07:55:40 AM

Martin

I always thought gate referred to the gate in the wall which the tee shot is hit over. What a great course!

Ciao

Sean

Sean,
do you know, I'd completely forgotten there's a wall on the hole! DOH!
Maybe the Hole should be called GAP now - there's no gate anymore - right? (Of course, I could be wrong - damn this rampant middle-age senility!)

FBD

« **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2006, 08:03:37 AM »

Martin

Gap is more apt these days. The 16th must stand as one of the most unique holes in golf. A wall, a burn, both covered on a decent drive, and a crazy green to boot. Did I mention that North Berwick is a great course?

Ciao

Sean

« **Reply #23 on:** February 23, 2006, 09:14:45 AM »

Martin,

Thanks for that picture...really clarifies the line of play and the green orientation.

I think I've got a better handle now on the biarritz vs. double plateau issue. I scoured some online resources for definitions and pictures and feel I now have a much better understanding of the differences.

« **Reply #24 on:** February 23, 2006, 09:32:53 AM »

Getting back on topic, I'm not at all convinced by the pictures that Morgan Creek is anything but just average. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, however, at KP VI!

Dundonald looks much better.

Getting back OT, when I first played NB back in the early 80's and thought that "Redan" was a a Japanese horror film star who occasionally battled Mothra and Godzilla, the "Gate" hole was like totally more fun and challenging than the 15th (Rodan?). Even though I'm long gone from California I still do, dudes (and dudesses).......

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