[Thomas_Brown]

4th hole at Riv - Hogan's quote - best mid iron par 3?
I watched a 5 iron at 8 am, 50 degrees, no wind from 235 yards.  This from #68 on the 2005 PGA driving distance.
Where is Tommy w/ that historical Hogan quote?

#1 at 7:10 am when it's 40 degrees was 3 wood, 7 iron.

The rollback of 15 yards w/ the new proposed ball won't nearly be enough.

Can't wait to see Augusta #4, which at 245 will play shorter than Riv's 4th at 235.

[Glenn Spencer]

Thomas,

It is all just a big joke, I have heard it all now, that is disgusting. 5 iron. I said earlier, I think you could very well see 2iron, 2iron on 13 at Augusta. 15 yards won't do anything. The problem is that they all just swing for the fences because they know that they can't really hit it crooked. No thought whatsoever. I honestly don't see it as interesting anymore.

[Michael Robin]

Glenn, I think your spot on, and there are even casualties from this inside the Tour as well.

I just got home from having dinner with an old teammate from college who is on the Tour. We're both early forties. I asked him about the length issues because I just don't understand why the big leap is occurring in length these last 3 years for some players and not others. My friend use to be top 35 in Driving Distance and now  
is around 90th. He's hitting it only about 10 yards further than when he was 35th. I said that's the same kind of increase that I've seen in my game during that time period. I said something besides technology has to be responsible for these big leaps we're seeing. He said the lack of curviture on the ball is the culprit, and how it relates to the learning of the game by today's young players. He says that given the total lack of fear that they have of hitting the ball off line because of its lack of sidespin, the young player is just swinging so much harder and their clubhead speed is so much greater resulting in this huge leap. He said he's increased his weight training, but at this stage, his body will only learn so many new tricks and his original golf mentality was based on controlling the golf ball, not murdering it every time. So the next casualty in this will be the older Tour Player. Start calling it the "Logan's Run" Tour.

It used to be fun watching these guys every week because theirs was a game I could relate to. I thought I could learn something. Now, it's gotten so absurd that they play a game with which I am not familiar. And this time, that's not a compliment.
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thomas Brown,

When Pete Dye was tinkering with Crooked Stick in preparation for the PGA I had a discussion with him on the 14th hole.

I asked him why he was altering the angle of a new tee that he was building, back behind the current back tee.

He said, in the ultimate he wanted the tour pros to have to hit 2 and 3-irons into some greens, and, he was referencing par 4's and 3's not par 5's.  And, by making the changes he was hoping to accomplish that end.

In theory, if it is an architect's mission to test the golfer with the use every club in the bag, how can a modern day architect prepare that examination without ridiculous length.

Then again, if guys in the desert are hitting 285 yard 5-irons, exceptional length isn't ridiculous.

I agree, I don't think a 15 yard rollback is sufficient, it amounts to approximately 5 %, when 10 % is needed.

[jeffwarne]

Michael,
 First i agree a 10% rollback is needed. I also would like to see the ball spin more traditionally for ability to curve it (both intentionally and unintentionally)and to reward those who have the skill to take the spin off it into the wing and into back pins.

However, is it really shocking that a player in his early 40's would slip from 35th in distance to 90th?
Even without the addition of a more athletic, conditioned generation.
Not too many other sports where a 40+ athelete remains at the top of his sport in power.
I would venture that Jack,Arnie,and Tom saw a similar statistical drop in their distance compared to other players by their early 40's. (even though all continued to be quite long)

[BCrosby]

I agree with the above.

I urge anyone who has any doubts about the crazy distances people hit it to attend a Tour event at a course you know well. It is worse, much worse, than the stats show.

Bob

[Mike Hendren]

I guess I'm one of the few remaining lucky ones.  Playing with only ten clubs, I hit driver off the deck from 190 into a 30 mph wind yesterday.  Made 4 and finished in 37 strokes.  Also lipped out a birdie putt from 30 yards off the green on the previous hole.  Bogey's back.

I refuse to believe the sky is falling.  Look what restrictor plate racing has done for NASCAR:  Bunch up the field, but the best drivers win anyway.  Seems to me technology has done the same thing for the professional game.  So what.  Talladega's still 2.6 miles.  

Don't respond by arguing that technology forces clubs to mutilate their golf courses by adding length.  Last I checked, NO is a complete sentence.

Blissfully indifferent,

Mike

Quit defending the game and go play.

[Larry_Keltto]

I agree with what has been said above.

When making reference to historic club usage, however, it is important to remember that the 5 iron of today isn't the same loft as the 5 iron of 40 years ago.

Tom Wishon, in his outstanding book "The Search for the Perfect Golf Club," points out that the average 5 iron of today has 26 or 27 degrees of loft. Here are the average lofts of 5 irons from the past:

early 1990s, 28 degree
1980s, 30 degrees
1960s and 70s, 32 degrees

The 5 iron of today is the same loft as a 3 or 4 iron of the 1960s.

All other irons have had similar changes to loft.

Wishon, a clubmaker himself of course, points out that the manufacturers have decreased loft steadily as a way to claim their "new irons" were x-percent longer than before.

[Andy Hughes]

I didn't see this, but someone on another thread said Tiger hit 3-wood into this hole.  Is everyone talking about the same hole??

[Thomas_Brown]

when Tiger was 16, he hit 3 wood.
He hit either 4 or 5 iron yesterday and pulled it badly.

[Andy Hughes]

After watching the highlights from Riviera yesterday I saw Tiger Wodds hitting a 3-wood to the par three fourth.  I was shocked, and plus the fact he made a double bogey.

Thomas, I am not saying you are wrong, just quoting what Jordan posted elsewhere.  So what he was watching was actually Tiger from 14 years ago?

[CHrisB]

I guess I'm one of the few remaining lucky ones.  Playing with only ten clubs, I hit driver off the deck from 190 into a 30 mph wind yesterday.  Made 4 and finished in 37 strokes.  Also lipped out a birdie putt from 30 yards off the green on the previous hole.  Bogey's back.

I refuse to believe the sky is falling.  Look what restrictor plate racing has done for NASCAR:  Bunch up the field, but the best drivers win anyway.  Seems to me technology has done the same thing for the professional game.  So what.  Talladega's still 2.6 miles.  

Don't respond by arguing that technology forces clubs to mutilate their golf courses by adding length.  Last I checked, NO is a complete sentence.

Blissfully indifferent,

Mike

Quit defending the game and go play.

Now that is a refreshing post!

[Jason Topp]

I guess I'm one of the few remaining lucky ones.  Playing with only ten clubs, I hit driver off the deck from 190 into a 30 mph wind yesterday.  Made 4 and finished in 37 strokes.  Also lipped out a birdie putt from 30 yards off the green on the previous hole.  Bogey's back.

I refuse to believe the sky is falling.  Look what restrictor plate racing has done for NASCAR:  Bunch up the field, but the best drivers win anyway.  Seems to me technology has done the same thing for the professional game.  So what.  Talladega's still 2.6 miles.  

Don't respond by arguing that technology forces clubs to mutilate their golf courses by adding length.  Last I checked, NO is a complete sentence.

Blissfully indifferent,

Mike

Quit defending the game and go play.

Now that is a refreshing post!

Do you think Lee Trevino or Gary Player would be competitive if they were starting out today?  I don't.  

[Glenn Spencer]

Great point Jason.

[Bob_Huntley]

Jason,

Lee Trevino and Gary Player competed against two of the big bombers of their day, namely Palmer and Nicklaus. I think that on the whole they did rather well. Could they compete today?
It all depends it what sort of tournament you choose, the normal PGA field or some tough layout as found in an Open Championship.

Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

I think one needs to be careful when throwing out names of true all-time greats like Trevino and Player... that is, I get the point - today's power game wouldn't seem to be advantageous for them - but man, these guys were SO great, I have to believe they'd find a way to win.  They played as they did because it suited their times... who's to say either of them couldn't change and adapt?

TH

[Jason Topp]

Bob:

That is precisely my point.  They could compete against the bombers in their day because their distance disadvantage was comparatively small.  In my view, if they were starting out today, they would be facing a 50 yard disadvantage off the tee against players with outstanding short games.  

Unless a course is set up to take driver out of the long player's hands, I do not think they could make up the difference and would instead be trying to compete on the Hooter's tour.  

[Jason Topp]

I think one needs to be careful when throwing out names of true all-time greats like Trevino and Player... that is, I get the point - today's power game wouldn't seem to be advantageous for them - but man, these guys were SO great, I have to believe they'd find a way to win.  They played as they did because it suited their times... who's to say either of them couldn't change and adapt?

TH

I mean no disrespect to Player and Trevino.  As I understand it Trevino made a choice to get control over the ball because he played on an overly treed Tennison Park course and needed to hit fairways to win bets.  

It is hard to believe that Player could have gotten longer.  He worked out, hit a draw to maximize distance and was still shorter than other competitors

I think it would be extremely difficult for either person to convert themselves into long hitters.  I also think it would have been difficult for either to make it up with the short game given that the long hitters of today have terrific short games.  

[Phil Benedict]

Jason,

I made the same point a while ago, although my examples were Faldo and Trevino.  We could use Hogan, for that matter. And yes, Player and Trevino competed well against Nicklaus, but that was before all the technology tilted the game decisively in favor of long hitters.  In today's game players who rely on control are at a distinct disadvantage.  

[Mike Hendren]

In the very late 80's I took my dad to the practice rounds at The Masters.  As usual, we camped out at the range.  The Mexican, as we lovingly called him, was chatting up his fellow competitors on the range.  Trevino was hitting drivers and one-hopping the ball into the net that protected Washington Road.  Suddenly, he launched three or four consecutive drives that cleared the net - big, high power fades.  

TREVINO WOULD MOP THE FLOOR WITH THE PRETTY BOYS THAT PLAY THE GAME TODAY.  His outgoing demeanor belied a massive chip on his shoulder that helped make him great.

I miss Lee Buck Trevino.  How soon we forget.

Mike

[Tom Huckaby]

Jason - I understand your point.  But what I'm getting at is what Bogey just alluded to - guys like Trevino and Player were SO great, I just believe they would find a way to be successful in today's game.  If they had to hit it farther, they would find a way.

The overall point is a good one in any case - just don't use these greats as your examples!  I would agree that the average-length off the tee middle of the pack pro from 1965 would have a very difficult time today.  But Trevino/Player... and good lord Hogan?

They'd win in any era.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Another Trevino story:

When the senior tour first came to Nashville years ago, I looked up Trevino's tee time.  Drove out to Opryland, caught the shuttle bus and sat at the range, awaiting Trevino.  When he finished hitting balls and headed to the first tee, I caught the shuttle bus and went back to work.  

I wouldn't walk across the street to watch most of the modern professionals hit a golf ball.

A couple of images of my man:





I'm verklempt.

Mike

[George Pazin]

One quick look around at some of the winners on tour tells you that Trevino and Player wouldn't just compete, they'd probably still win majors. Does someone want to try to argue that Ben Curtis, Shaun Micheel, et al, are better than them? They wouldn't win as many, because of a guy named Tiger taking a good percentage of the available wins, but they'd win.

But that's all beside the point. Bash drop and stop golf just isn't as interesting. The only time golf is compelling to watch - not close competition, just the actual golf shots - is at the US Open, The Open, and maybe Kapalua and a couple other venues. If you don't care about that, and you don't care that classic courses are being altered ad nausem, fine, don't ask the ruling bodies to do anything, but at least make some effort to understand the head in the sand position you are taking.

[Tom Huckaby]

George:

Not sure who you're directing that at - hey I was just saying Trevino and Player would still be great.  

Though I'd likely not concur with you on the extent of the problem today, I've come to see that if even one course gets altered to allow for greater distances, that's not a good thing so yes, something does need to be done.  Of far greater importance to me is that so many new courses are being built that are too damn long and too damn expensive, and yes, the distance issue plays into that as well.

TH

[Thomas_Brown]

We have Luke Donald, Olazabal, Roberts, Mediate, Faxon, Jay Haas, ...
They're your modern day Trevino/Player.

I'm really more interested in the the changes to the golf course.  I also saw Faxon in 40 degree weather at 7 am on Thursday drive the 10th green.  Do you think Faxon is a bomber hitting the weight room?

10 years ago Daly trying to go for #10 was considered the risky play.

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