[TEPaul]

.....that for whatever reason were screwed up by changes?

[Garland Bayley]

I guess the corollary to this question is; do club members recognize the great holes and thereby preserve them, while trying to tweak the lesser holes?

Tom,

Don't you have some answers to you question? The redan that was changed at NGLA? The resort operators (was it Homestead) that you reported on that were doing a restoration from your research.

[wsmorrison]

Flynn's final version of the 14th at the Cascades, which was never fully constructed, though the green end was, was a phenomenal design that was screwed up by RTJ, Sr. when he moved the green rather than moving the tee.  The domino effect was to screw up the tee shot on the long par 3 15th hole as well.

[A_Clay_Man]

# 5 Pebble beach.
#16 Spyglass Hill

[Tom Huckaby]

Adam - you need to see my answer to Tom's other thread.

 

Concur re 16 Spyglass.

I shall add another local:  12 Fort Ord Bayonet.  I weep every time I see it these days.

[Mike_Cirba]

12 at Whitemarsh Valley
16 at Sleepy Hollow
5 at Merion

[Garland Bayley]

I have to wonder if there is a possible book in this topic.

[Tom Huckaby]

Garland - good call - I was thinking the same thing.  Of course you'd also need to include the reverse side as well - holes that were strengthened through revisions.  Then you'd have an epilougue of 55 pages of Adam C. and I arguing where PB #5 falls.

 

[jeffwarne]

Mike,
I worked at Sleepy Hollow "92,'93.
I had the opportunity to teach and befriend Jim Hand,former president of the USGA and long time Sleepy Hollow member.

I was out playing the course a few years later after the "renovation" that desecrated that hole.
I ran into Mr. Hand who was out walking-He took me to the 16th tee and asked me what I saw.
When I told him he said he saw exactly the same thing.
...he literally had tears in his eyes.

Scary how clubs try to keep up with the Jones's (pun intended)

[Mike Benham]

18th at Olympic Lake ...

[Tom Huckaby]

18th at Olympic Lake ...

Mike - having seen it just from afar whilst trying to bother my friends, please do explain why it's on this list.  Is the new green THAT bad?

Please tell me it still has the IOU bunkers, btw.  

[Mike Benham]

Bad is a relative term ... there is a lot less slope and the degree of difficulty is far lower ...

And yes, the vowels are still there awaiting a consonant ...

[A_Clay_Man]

Then you'd have an epilougue of 55 pages of Adam C. and I arguing where PB #5 falls.

Unfortunate, since I am Tom's recognized expert on PB.

[George Pazin]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned any of the holes at Augusta.

I really dislike the changes to 18. I liked it before, even if they were hitting half wedges into the green. Didn't seem like it gave up that many birdies on Sunday, and I hate the new tee, where it looks like they are driving out of the kind of chute I get stuck in in my nightmares.

How about some of the changes at Inverness and Oak Hill? Were the holes that were changed any good in their own right? No one seems to like the new ones.

[Dan Moore]

Brown Deer Golf Course #5  home of the Greater Milwaukee Open.  The hole was changed for the GMO by Andy North.  The original was a relatively short maybe 155 yds slightly uphill par 3 with bunkers all around and was severely sloped from back to front.    The powers that be probably thought it was too short and wouldn't be fair at tournament speeds but we always thought it was one of the most fun holes on the course when we played it growing up.  There is nothing wrong with the new hole it just lacks the character and quirkiness of the original.  

[Tom Huckaby]

Then you'd have an epilougue of 55 pages of Adam C. and I arguing where PB #5 falls.

Unfortunate, since I am Tom's recognized expert on PB.

Recognized expert yes - infallible no.

 

[Dave Bourgeois]

Mike and Jeff,

Being recently local (6 years) what was #16 at Sleepy Hollow like before the re-do?  I am also assuming that the course was "Doctored" (I am an awful hack).

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I'd cite some of the holes at Oak Hill, Plainfield, Montclair and Inverness, as well as the 12th at GCGC.

In retrospect, I'd be surprised if the clubs wouldn't do it differently, now that they've benefited from 20-20 hindsight.

Perhaps the biggest travesty was Metropolis, where they sacrificed some excellent holes so that they could have tennis courts closer to the clubhouse.  Does any club have any strictly tennis members anymore ?   Montclair ruined their 1st nine for tennis courts as well.

When you think of all the reasons why clubs disfigured their golf courses and ruined, destroyed or abandoned holes, tennis bothers me the most.

Some courses had no choice, like Canoe Brook, San Francisco and Belmont where AOROW claimed holes and forced a reconfiguring of the routing, and the creation of new holes.

[TEPaul]

"5 at Merion "

MikeC:

Look, pal, if you can't figure out some way of getting over this ridiculous jag you've been on over those two inconsequentlal little nothing bunkers that were actually only there for nine days around the 1930 US Open, I'll go out there on a warm June night and take the Goddamn things out myself. It'll take at least nine days before anyone even notices they're gone.  


Pat:

Very interesting examples!

[DMoriarty]

I am sure Tommy and Geoff could name a bunch of Thomas/Bell holes here in California, lke the Mae West hole at Bel-Air, the eighth at Riviera, the third and 16th at Ojai, some at La Cumbra, and a bunch more.  

[TEPaul]

David:

Other than perhaps in the near proximity to NYC many years ago (Dev Emmett's et al) I fear southern California is perhaps the biggest tragedy this way of all. And the supreme irony is some of that NLE and mutilated California architecture just may have been the most unusual, cutting edge and innovative in the Nation, and perhaps in the entire evolution of GCA.

[Jim Nugent]

David:

Other than perhaps in the near proximity to NYC many years ago (Dev Emmett's et al) I fear southern California is perhaps the biggest tragedy this way of all. And the supreme irony is some of that NLE and mutilated California architecture just may have been the most unusual, cutting edge and innovative in the Nation, and perhaps in the entire evolution of GCA.

Tom, can you give some examples of what you are talking about?

[A_Clay_Man]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned any of the holes at Augusta.

George, There are probably two very good reasons why.
1) No one should really comment unles they have played the hole before and after. Sure they can comment, but honestly, who would believe them?
2) Those who are fortuante enough don't seem to want to screw-up their next invite.

[ForkaB]

The pictures I've seen of the old 6th at Dornoch (playing to a serioulsy gnarly backwards facing current 11th green) looked fascinating.

[Mike_Cirba]

"5 at Merion "

MikeC:

Look, pal, if you can't figure out some way of getting over this ridiculous jag you've been on over those two inconsequentlal little nothing bunkers that were actually only there for nine days around the 1930 US Open, I'll go out there on a warm June night and take the Goddamn things out myself. It'll take at least nine days before anyone even notices they're gone.  

Tom,

Great idea!!  

While you're at it, can you fill in those two dumb bunkers between the creek and the green on #4?  My lord, the whole lot of them should be forced to visit the 14th hole at Hollywood to see that even Rees Jones knows how to integrate a green with a fronting creek hazard!  

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