[DMoriarty]

Titleist recently applied for a patent for a new ball which according to the application was designed pursuant to the USGA's request for the development of a reduced distance ball.

The abstract describes the ball as follow . . .

High performance golf ball having a reduced-distance
A high performance golf ball having a reduced overall distance while maintaining the appearance of a high performance trajectory. The golf ball includes a combination of low CoR core and cover materials coupled with a less aerodynamic dimple pattern that achieves a reduction in carry and overall distance of 15 and 25 yards versus a conventional golf ball, while still providing the look, sound, feel and apparent flight of a conventional golf ball. A high performance golf ball having a reduced distance is also achieved by controlling dimensionless coefficients of lift/weight and drag/weight at certain Reynolds numbers and spin ratios for various CoR.

The abstract and application contain some interesting reading . . . a few snippets . . .

On the CoR of the core:  One golf ball component, in particular, that many manufacturers are continually looking to improve is the center or core. The core is the "engine" that influences the golf ball to go longer when hit by a club head. Generally, golf ball cores and/or centers are constructed with a polybutadiene-based polymer composition. Compositions of this type are constantly being altered in an effort to provide a targeted or desired coefficient of restitution ("CoR"), while at the same time resulting in a lower compression which, in turn, can lower the golf ball spin rate and/or provide better "feel."

On the new USGA standard: Advances in golf ball compositions and dimple designs have caused some high performance golf balls to exceed the maximum distance allowed by the United States Golf Associates (USGA), when hit by a professional golfer. The maximum distance allowed by the USGA is 317 yards.+-.3 yards, when impacted by a standard driver at 176 feet per second and at a calibrated swing condition of 10.degree., 2520 RPM, and 175 MPH with a calibrated ball.

http://www.freshpatents.com/High-performance-golf-ball-having-a-reduced-distance-dt20060126ptan20060019772.php

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks for the post. Most interesting. Let the dud wars begin.

[Willie_Dow]

This is a great move by Titleist !

  I just finished reading John Strege's "When War Played Through", and his reference to the Acushnet Company ad in 1943, headlined "Runner Up" to say that the "rubber we used to wind into the best golf balls we knew how to make has got to be sent out there in tires and gas masks and a thousand and one other pieces of essential equipment, to help keep Adolf pressing to stay up with the championship pace we're setting."

Does anybody remember when there was a shortage of golf balls ?

[Brent Hutto]

Disclaimer: This is speculation on my part but I think it is grounded in reality.

You know, that part about dimples and aerodynamics seems to imply that Titleist already knows how (and is trying to cover with their patent) some dimples that keep the ball from upshooting and going too far offline even if it spins a lot. That would be the logical next step in response to a minimum spin restriction in the Rules.

There's no reason I know of that a high-spin ball can't be coupled with lower-lift dimples to emulate the trajectory of a low-spin ball with higher-lift dimples. I suspect it means a compromise of aerodynamics in other applications but that would be subject to optimization by a clever designer, too.

Oh man, I'm geeking out here  

[A_Clay_Man]

For all those that said Titleist would never do this, will you please now admit your error?

I admit I never thought it would really happen. I wonder how this will effect "The Golf Industry"?

If it does bring about a negative impact, I say good riddance to the industry mindset.

How long will it take the skilled, to out distance the high preformance ball, with this new ball?

Will the advertising now stop focusing on greater distance?

 

[Steve Lang]

 

Part II..  The low lift dimples probably provide less ground friction, increasing roll-out distance and overall driving distance when spin is properly applied (i.e., professionally) and firm turf conditions exist..

hmmmm..  can't wait to find these new balls littering the right and left fairway rough.. will they be more costly than current PV1/PV1x ?

Adam, how many of those Rawlings Balata's do you still have? I'm down to one other than the Jasper AC autograph model?

[TEPaul]

Adam:

Some may've said Titleist would never do something like this but that was probably before the USGA asked ALL golf ball manufacturers last April to submit prototype sample balls that would go 15 and 25 yards less far so that the USGA Tech Center could beginning the testing of them.

According to Jim Vernon's report on the "Equipment Standards" Committee of the USGA last week in Atlanta two ball manufacturing companies have submitted samples and that the rest of the ball manufacturing companies were expected to submit their samples shortly. He did not mention who the two companies were that have already submitted their prototype samples.

If Titleist absolutely refused to submit samples that certainly wouldn't look very good, would it?

The only thing remotely problematic that comes to my mind is that I sure hope Titleist's patent application in no way complicates the production of 15 and 25 yard reduced distance golf balls by the rest of the golf ball manufacturers.

[ForkaB]

The only thing remotely problematic that comes to my mind is that I sure hope Titleist's patent application in no way complicates the production of 15 and 25 yard reduced distance golf balls by the rest of the golf ball manufacturers.

Tom

I think you've got it!  This is a "the best offense is a good defense" strategy.  Wally U and Co. are covering their arses as well as trying to pre-empt all their competitors, if and when a "competition ball" comes into the frame.  IMHO, of course.

[A_Clay_Man]

I know it's a stretch, but,,,
What will stop other ball manufactuers from suing the USGA if they write into the rules a certain ball spec that Titleist has the patent on?

[Jay Flemma]

"No patent is worth a damn unless and until it is voided..."

I wonder if LOndon bookies have odds on who files the first application to oppose...

[DMoriarty]

Disclaimer: This is speculation on my part but I think it is grounded in reality.

You know, that part about dimples and aerodynamics seems to imply that Titleist already knows how (and is trying to cover with their patent) some dimples that keep the ball from upshooting and going too far offline even if it spins a lot. That would be the logical next step in response to a minimum spin restriction in the Rules.

There's no reason I know of that a high-spin ball can't be coupled with lower-lift dimples to emulate the trajectory of a low-spin ball with higher-lift dimples. I suspect it means a compromise of aerodynamics in other applications but that would be subject to optimization by a clever designer, too.

Oh man, I'm geeking out here  

If this geeks you out you should take a look at Titleist's other recent patent application which has to do with dimple pattern.  It is on the same site.  I didnt read it to carefully but something about arranging the dimple patterns into two strips.  Maybe they are working on higher backspin without higher side spin.
________________

To all:  I wouldn't assume that this application signals a change of direction on the part of Titleist.  The abstract indicates that they are complying with the USGA's request and surely they are preparing for the worst (from their perspective) but mostly they are probably just protecting their intellectual property, whether or not they ever plan on producing this ball for our consumption.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom,
I don't see how any of Titleists' patents will complicate the construction or production of anyone else's golf balls. There are numerous patents on every ball made today and in the past. I'll be surprised if a few companies don't just dust off and update the patents they have for balls they made in the '70s, '80s and early '90s that would have no problem meeting a 15 to 25 yard rollback.

Adam,
If the USGA writes a rule the specs will be about max. distance, max. FPS, max, spin., etc., it won't pertain to 'how' a company gets there.

 

[Dan Herrmann]

Which of us will be the first to buy the rolled back Titleist, while existing ProV1s are also on the shelf?

He that does so should be knighted for his integrity!

[Brent Hutto]

Which of us will be the first to buy the rolled back Titleist, while existing ProV1s are also on the shelf?

He that does so should be knighted for his integrity!

In what sense "integrity"?

When Tom Huckaby or Dave Moriarty play a round of golf with hickory clubs are they exhibiting greater integrity than someone who uses modern clubs and a balata ball? If so, then the logical implication is we all ought to be playing on unimproved linksland somewhere and hitting a wooden ball toward a rabbit scrape or something.

I'm not sure that the prevailing opinion around here equates teeing up a ProV1 with some sort of moral turpitude. If so, perhaps that answers the question about whether BSG or GCA is more geeky...

[Tom Huckaby]

Brent - I'm just a newbie in this - Dave's been doing it far longer than me, and Ran longer than him... then the Pope of All Things Hickory is indeed Ralph Livingston... and I'm just a part-timer at this point.

Just to set the record straight.  

But you make a good point.  I can't speak for the others, but I'm not using hickories to make any point, or take any moral high ground - I'm doing it because I missed certain club-choice and shotmaking aspects the modern clubs don't allow, and in the experiment I've found that using these is damn fun.

In any case, I also think Dan H. might be missing a very key part of this - I think a LOT of people will use the rolled-back ball because they want to be like the pros... think about how many people rush out to buy the latest greatest driver/irons/golf ball because their favorite pro uses them... won't the same thing happen to some extent with this golf ball, even though they think (likely erroneously) it won't go as far for them?  

And then among competitive players or lower handicappers, man use of the "old ball" will be like using a Pinnacle today... that is sure, you can do it, but you receive nothing but scorn from your playing partners....

I see this as a very doable, very winnable thing.

TH

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom Huckaby,
Unless it can be proven that a reduced distance ball doesn't take yardage away from the average player it will never find a market. The whole idea isn't focused at 95% of golfers anyway, just those at the pinnacle of the sport.
A reduced distance ball is aimed at those who play Tour events, some USGA events, possibly some top club events, etc., but I don't think you'll see golfers at large using it unless, as I said earlier, it can be shown that they aren't going to lose any distance.
Now, if the balata comes back, well......that's another story.

[Doug Siebert]

In order for a rolled back ball to be workable outside of a PGA only context, it would HAVE to be a different size than the current ball.  How is the local city amateur going to tell whether the wierd off brand balls you brought conform to the new rules or not?  They should just make them a bit larger and they could be easily tested with a metal ring.  As a bonus, they get tossed around by the wind just a little bit more and the added wind resistance means there's less rolling back to do in the first place -- they could probably just accomplish it with a 1.75" ball and some minimum spin rate in an Iron Byron test under a given set of test conditions and not have to change the initial velocity at all.

Then you don't have to worry about who is playing what, and there might even be a market for the classic bomber ball for a while.  How long after the UK went to 1.68" did they sell 1.62", or did they cease production immediately when the new rule took effect?

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom - I think you're right about me missing the point.  Thanks for the insight.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom - I think you're right about me missing the point.  Thanks for the insight.

Well Dan, I could be very wrong also, as Jim Kennedy says.  Who knows?  I just do think that "playing the stuff the pros play" is a HUGE part of equipment purchases.  I just do have to believe there will be at least a segment who buy the rolled-back ball for just this reason - to impress their friends that they don't NEED the souped-up ball.

When's the last time you saw a decent player use a Pinnacle or Top-Flite (other than the new soft models) also?

There is A market for this.  Now if it will be THE market for the masses, that remains to be seen.

TH

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tom H,
I didn't say you were wrong, actually, I almost agreed with you. I just feel that there won't be a much of a market for it among average players who don't have yardage to burn if it's proven to be shorter than what they're using now, even if Titleist maintains the same performance characteristics of its ProV1 in a reduced distance version. If this type of RDB gets approved then of course there'll be a market. You'll need to buy some for any event where it's the specified type on the rule sheet.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim - gotcha.

My assumption is that the effect of the ball will be what the USGA is requesting:  significant reduced distance for very high swing speeds, only a very little if any reduced distance for the average joe.  Of course the perception will still be its a reduced distance ball no matter what, but hopefully this will be the reality.

Then if that's the case, well... I do think there will be a segment of average players who will use it just to "be like Tiger" - hell look at their golf bags today - they're not buying Nike/Taylor Made/Callaway so much because it's great stuff, but because that's what the pros use.

So my thinking is it will be the same for this new ball.  Then add the required use at tournaments, coolness factor for better players, etc. as I've described before, and well...

The market will exist.  How much of a market remains to be seen... but at least there will be some.

TH

[Ted Kramer]

What do you guys think about these ideas . . .

*Many weekend players want to play what the pros play
*Many lousy players play the tips because that is what the pros do
*Many 10 handicaps play blades because Tiger does
*Nike, for example, could come up with an awsome marketing campaign based on being a "keeper of the game" with a rolled-back ball
*If the pros play a rolled back ball the weekend players will follow

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

Ted - that is all exactly what I've been trying to get at in my last few posts here.  Well said, far more succinctly than I did.  I really think a market will be created, for each of these reasons.  Then you add in the good players playing the ball just because they think they should... more players using them as tournaments require them... I really think they will sell.

TH

[Tom Dunne]

Ted,

I agree with all each of your bullet points (though the 4th one is the least likely, given how recent an entry Nike's golf division is).

For a while now, I've just had this image of a single-digit player walking into the bar after a round at Bandon Dunes and pulling up a stool with his friends.

"What did you shoot today, Bob?"
"75"
"With the tournament ball or regular?"
"Tournament."

Appreciative nods all around. It would become a badge of honor for players to post a number with the "pro ball". I get the sense, as George says, it would become another category that could be effectively marketed to golfers. But I fully admit I have no idea what the real ramifications to the golf ball market would actually turn out to be if such a ball were produced. It sure would be interesting, though.

[A.G._Crockett]

What do you guys think about these ideas . . .

*Many weekend players want to play what the pros play
*Many lousy players play the tips because that is what the pros do
*Many 10 handicaps play blades because Tiger does
*Nike, for example, could come up with an awsome marketing campaign based on being a "keeper of the game" with a rolled-back ball
*If the pros play a rolled back ball the weekend players will follow

-Ted

Here's the risk, though.  In the past, the wish to play what the pros play has meant getting better, or at least believing that you might.  That will NOT be the case here, and that makes it different than anything before, and therefore greatly uncertain.

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