News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Kyle Harris

Should Practice Greens...
« on: February 02, 2006, 10:03:42 PM »
...represent the greens on the course?

If so, how so?

I feel that practice putting and chipping greens should prompt warm up and not necessarily conditions found on the course.

Do any of the architects here think about this when building a course?

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2006, 10:09:22 PM »
Kyle-

I think that whatever is done in a uniform fashion to the greens throughout the course should also be done to the practice green. A player should not only have the opportunity
to loosen up, but to also anticipate, to some degree, the speed, firmness, and condition of the putting surfaces.

Kyle Harris

Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2006, 10:13:48 PM »
Craig,

I'll agree with you as it comes to maintenance issues, though that can be extremely hard given that practice greens typically get MUCH more traffic than the greens out on the course - if less pitch marks.

I was more talking about actually design features like undulations, teirs, etc.

Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2006, 10:23:49 PM »
Kyle-I see. Yeah, I think that if the course has a lot of movement in their greens, certainly the practice green should also exhibit that. I don't think it matters as much with tiers.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2006, 10:25:51 PM »
Kyle,
I find practice chipping/pitching/bunker greens tend to be terrible as a whole.
Often an after thought,but frequently built by the original architect who should know better.
Almost always they are too severe,too small,and generally only present a difficult one dimensional shot,usually a soft flop,off what is usually overused turf (a tough combination)

I believe a practice short game green should allow the player to practice and learn basic shots.A nice,relatively level to minor undulation over most of the green,with a few good undulations on perhaps one side.
The player can then use his imagination or props to create and learn more difficult shots.
Far too often a practice green only accepts a shot that I would never suggest most amateurs even try,which encourages faulty and risky technique.
Less is more unless the club has the real estate and means to provide a large diversified area to integrate more severe situations and provide a simpler,uncluttered learning area.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Kyle Harris

Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2006, 10:37:08 PM »
Jeff,

I've encountered a good number of decent practice putting greens in my life. I've found the best are muli-tiered or VERY long.

Penn State has a "ribbon" of putting green at the PSU Golf Courses that is roughly 60 yards long and maybe 10 yards wide. It is slightly bowed in as well. The shape works to bring a large number of golfers into the green and there are maybe a dozen holes spread across the ribbon. Since most golfers warm up with putts less than 30 feet anyway, you have golfers hitting shots parallel to each other and never really crossing.

The U-shaped nature of the green allows people to chip from the inside to any area of the green not occupied, yet having the same shot.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2006, 10:45:57 PM »
My non-resident member course, Columbia-Edgewater CC in Portland, Oregon, has a wonderful practice area that uses about 60 acres left of the 10th fairway and 11th tee.  The target pitching green is very large, with several pins moved daily, and a large horseshoe tee which creates a number of different angled and length shots.  The practice putting green is large enough that wear doesn't seem to be a problem and the bent grass is very similar to the greens on the course.  The nine par 3 holes vary from 80 yards to 130 yards, and the short course was designed by Bunny Mason, a PGA pro and course designer from Portland.

This is generally classified as HEAVEN!

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2006, 10:57:52 PM »
Kyle,

ABSOLUTELY.

Jeff,

You can't equate a green that gets hit with thousands of balls a day, without any repairs, to greens that get hit by 100-200.

In addition, many aren't constructed or maintained in the same fashion that the greens on the course are.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2006, 11:18:00 PM »
I recently read something about the practice green at Kingston Heath being constructed to replicate certain shots on the course.  I did not know it at the time I was on the practice green, but there certainly some interesting shots to be played around it.

Jordan Wall

Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2006, 11:28:47 PM »
Kyle,

My answer (simple as it may be) is yes.

Golf is hard enough.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2006, 12:28:14 AM »
Jeff is right on the mark.  The key word is practice--something that seems to be alien to the majority of golfers.  Over the years, I have been at clubs with not so great practice greens and the membership has generally not spent much time working on short game.  Short game is what really seperates players.  If you have a decent range and a so so practice green, where are the players going to spend the bulk of their time?  A good practice green at least offers the opportunity to address short game issues.

James Cashmore

Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2006, 12:40:37 AM »
One of the better practice greens I ever saw was at The Quarry in La Quinta, California.  It's 18 holes of green snaked around a beautiful setting testing nearly any sort of putt you could think of.  Truely sensational.

I've got photos of it but not sure how to post them.. I'll try if someone can IM me with how to.

Michael Robin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2006, 01:07:26 AM »
At my home course, there are two distinctly different practice putting greens near the first tee. The closest to the tee has a good resemblance of what you might face in the round - significant amounts of break, distinct uphill/downhill pitch, and it's mowing heighth is the same as on the course that day. The other green is much flatter and the break more gentle. A good green in which to work on your stroke. So, one green is to warm you up for your round and the other is for practice. I like these two different options, 'cause when I'm going to go play, I'm just trying to get a feel for the day, not work on mechanics.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2006, 01:13:42 AM by Michael Robin »

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2006, 05:39:13 AM »
I recently read something about the practice green at Kingston Heath being constructed to replicate certain shots on the course.  I did not know it at the time I was on the practice green, but there certainly some interesting shots to be played around it.

Jason

I assume you are tlking about the practice chipping green, next to the practice fairway.  It is a wonderful complex, and I understand it is a popular place with the members on a twilight evening with a nottle of red (Australian shiraz, of course).  Did it impress you on your visit.  Any other comments from recent visitors?  I think I have a photo somewhere, might take a couple of days to find it.

The practice putting green was still in Egmont turf when I last saw it about 2 or 3 years ago, very different to the A1 on the course.  It might havebeen replaced at Kingston Heath ny now.

James B

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Jerry Lemons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2006, 07:34:06 AM »
YES.

We try to emulate typical contours on the GG as on our course. Very often we let the PG be built LAST so the shaper can have some fun with the site. We give him the sf and shape and rough sketches then let him come as close to possible to a blend of what on the course.

I also make sure that the PG has lots of area for lots of folks and can handle traffic. I also want plenty of flat areas so you can practice those straight 3 footers!  
Jerry
Times flys and your the pilot !

Kyle Harris

Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2006, 07:51:27 AM »
Jerry,

That's what I was getting at. I prefer teired greens with large flat areas so I can get the speed of the greens before a round.

Lot's of undulations and movement in the green makes this more difficult (for me at least).

Jerry Lemons

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2006, 07:55:17 AM »
Jerry,

That's what I was getting at. I prefer teired greens with large flat areas so I can get the speed of the greens before a round.

Lot's of undulations and movement in the green makes this more difficult (for me at least).

Yes I agree but it is important to have some areas with varying degree of slope for testing the break on greens. Some grasses have a tendancy to break less at times at different speeds than others, thus the need for a wide variety of contours on the PG. BUT lots of flat areas are needed.
 
Times flys and your the pilot !

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2006, 07:58:30 AM »
No.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2006, 08:42:43 AM »
I recently read something about the practice green at Kingston Heath being constructed to replicate certain shots on the course.  I did not know it at the time I was on the practice green, but there certainly some interesting shots to be played around it.

Jason

I assume you are tlking about the practice chipping green, next to the practice fairway.  It is a wonderful complex, and I understand it is a popular place with the members on a twilight evening with a nottle of red (Australian shiraz, of course).  Did it impress you on your visit.  Any other comments from recent visitors?  I think I have a photo somewhere, might take a couple of days to find it.

The practice putting green was still in Egmont turf when I last saw it about 2 or 3 years ago, very different to the A1 on the course.  It might havebeen replaced at Kingston Heath ny now.

James B

James B

James - you are correct, I meant the chipping green.  It was my first exposure to a sand belt green and I probably spent 1/2 hour on it.  I thought it was a terrific introduction to the type of shot I would face on the course.  I also returned for a bit after the round to try and do better.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2006, 08:45:24 AM »
No.


Kelly,

Then it's your position that the practice putting green should differ, in pace, feel and texture from the putting greens on the golf course ?

Why would you want to present a putting surface that differs from those that the golfer will encounter on the golf course ?

Scott Witter

Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2006, 09:02:20 AM »
Kelly,

That's pretty deep, care to elaborate?

I feel there is value in designing, especially in contour and building, at least large enough to accomodate many players comfortably,the practice putting green in a like manner.  Is there not a sensibility in providing the golfers with a feature which is quite similar to what they will encounter during their round.

What is the advantage or purpose in not doing so?  I don't think anyone argues the differences in wear and tear and general conditions, but starting from the same point of reference seems to make sense to me.

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2006, 09:02:33 AM »
I was thinking in terms of undulations.  If my practice putting greens mirrored the undulations on my courses it would not be a good for practicing.  Most mistakes I have seen on practice putting greens have been too much undulation.  
« Last Edit: February 03, 2006, 09:03:46 AM by Kelly Blake Moran »

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2006, 09:26:18 AM »
Patrick,
I didn't mean terrible condition-I meant terrible design-as in afterthought or just way too much going on . Give the player room and area to learn the basic shots,then use his/her imagination on the course.(or at a more elaborate area such as Bill suggests, but few clubs can afford)
The practice area at Forest Hills in Augusta (2 blocks from my house as a kid-and the home of Bobby Jones "other "win in 1930), was a great example of an excellent practice area at a public facility.
It was a large putting green with gradual undulations throughout,but with pretty good undulations on the edges on 2 sides.It allowed room to putt (most players),chips,and basic pitches. Also,there was ample room to develop imagination,by chipping/pitching to the pins near the edges where the undulations were.
It was set up in a way where the chipping and pitching did not really clash with the putting,and worked very well at a busy public facility. It was a gathering place for all the local area short game practicers,and resulted in quite a few evening wagers,often way past dark.

Alas, a recent renovation segmented it into narrow fast,greens with nasty undulation where the only shot available is a flop or putt off a tight lie. Consequently,no one uses it and if they did it would be quite dangerous. I took my kids up there last Thanksgiving and we left after 10 minutes-it was just too difficult.
We went to the First Tee facility accross the street and it was worse-an elevated,severely contoured green stimping at about 11 so every ball rolled to the same place-either over or back to our feet. Surely somebody at The First Tee would realize this was a major design flaw.

We ended up chipping balls on the range into buckets and had a blast.


"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2006, 09:29:47 AM »
Iīve always thought it was good for the practice green to have some contours representative of the course; I used to love practicing on greens like that.

However, the Tourīs design staff just told me that for their courses, they prefer a flattish practice green of about 10000 sq ft.  They said the Tour players just want to get used to the speed of the green before they go out, and of course the green should be the same speed as those on the course.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Should Practice Greens...
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2006, 09:30:05 AM »
Kelly,
just saw your post. I agree 100%.
Save the undulation for the course,unless you have the luxury of space and money.
Most amateurs would disagree though.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back