A Shout Out To Donald J. Ross

[Mike Hendren]

Only Sean Arble gives Donald Ross an honorable mention in the "Getting to Know You" thread.

I get the impression from certain Flynn apologists that their man had to travel around to clean-up Ross' amateurish efforts.  

Those in the know suggest that Ross' absentee record is only rivaled by George "The Possum" Jones.    

Mike Young, a genuine Hillbilly, suggests many of his courses were built by farmers.

Few, if any, want to play one of his holes for the rest of their lives.

There appears to be no cache in the Ross name on this board, yet month after month after month a lesser known course of his bubbles to the surface - and my jaw drops.

12 of the top 50 and 22 of the top 100 on Golfweek's Classic list.  

Do we take him for granted?

Mike    

[TEPaul]

"Do we take him for granted?"

No. I think most of us who know Ross courses understand why some of his courses are really good, some good and some not so good. The basic reason is Ross did a helluva lot of golf courses and they are definitely not all of the same architectural quality because of that.

[Mike Hendren]

Tom,

Given the vast number of courses credited to him, aren't there surprisingly few stinkers and a plethora of "sixes" that are little known outside of their respective regions?  

Subtle doesn't sell.

Mike

P.S.  Sean, I just saw your post.  Perhaps "fallen out of favor" is a better way for me to put it.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Given the vast number of courses credited to him, aren't there surprisingly few stinkers and a plethora of "sixes" that are little known outside of their respective regions?"

I don't know about that. I know a lot of Ross courses but most all I know are up and down the East Coast. In that group of Ross's inventory there are a fair number of very good ones, quite a number of good ones and some fairly bland ones. That's about as far as it goes in my opinion. I don't think I've ever seen a really bad Ross course---just sort of mundane is about the extent of the negative on some of Ross's, in my opinion.  

[Craig Sweet]

Bogey,

I asked a drummer friend of mine once if he thought Ringo was a good drummer.

He paused, and then said, "well, he drums on a lot of great music."

I think the same is true for Ross....his name is attached to a lot of great golf courses.

[Craig Sweet]

I don't think he's over rated, nor does my friend think Ringo is over rated.

I think he was saying in a  backhanded way, how do you want to measure greatness?

[ForkaB]

Bogey,

I asked a drummer friend of mine once if he thought Ringo was a good drummer.

He paused, and then said, "well, he drums on a lot of great music."

I think the same is true for Ross....his name is attached to a lot of great golf courses.

Jeepers, perhaps the Ross Rep has slipped further than I thought!  Craig, apparently you don't think Ross deserves the credit he garnishes.  I think this is about the harshest thing I have ever read about Ross.  If I am not misreading your quote, why do you think Ross is over rated?

Ciao

Sean

Yeah

And you'll have to struggle to find any self-respecting musician who believes that Lennon, McCartney or Harrison were, individually or collectively, anything other than mediocre giutarists.

The proof is in the pudding. Whether you are talking about music or golf courses.  Ross (and Ringo) stand the test of time.

PS--anybody remember who won the great GCA shoot-out 2-3 years ago on here?  I think it was an ex-carpenter's apprentice from the Highlands......

[Craig Sweet]

Rich did a mcuh better job than I did.  

[Phil Benedict]

I'd like to see a comparison of the number of courses attributed to the Golden Age architects.  My guess is that Ross has way more than anyone else.  There's a lot of Ross inventory compared to the other greats, not all of which is going to be top quality. (I realize this is not an original thought.)  He didn't have many memorable sights (eg like Cypress Point or Augusta), nor did he build signature holes (Redan or Biarritz).  His courses may lack visual grandeur as a consequence, which has become increasingly important with the arrival of Bandon, Sand Hills and Fazio with all his waterfalls.  Whatever their architectural merit, these places look striking.  With the exception of Seminole, Ross courses generally do not have this visual drama.

On the other hand Ross did amazing things with small, unpromising sights (Beverly, Wannamoisatt).  Could any of the other Golden Age architects have done better with these sights?  

[Glenn Spencer]

Simply one of the best!

[T_MacWood]

Its hard to believe but I think he may be under appreciated today. His subtle style does not always come across well in photographs...I wonder if that hurts him with some. Some rival architect's features and architecture really stands out (look at me!). Ross takes a back seat to his golf course. He's like a good referee or official...you never notice them.

The Ross-ification of his courses by restoration specialists I think will ultimately hurt his legacy if it continues.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I never met a Ross course I didn't like. I think I've played or seen five of them. Not what I would call experienced in a Matthew J. Ward-Editor & Chief New Jersey Golfer-sense, but each one of them fine courses in all. I love them, and true love lasts a lifetime I'm told.

That being...

Hillbilly Hendren,
I have never once figured Mike Young as a Hillbilly in any "Delieverance" kind of way.

I picture Mike to be more the Good ol' Boy/Nextel Cup watchin'/Rebel flag-wavin'/Piggly Wiggly shoppin'/Southerner of the most gentlemanly kind. I also figure Mike doesn't have to walk out into the back yard to utilize the restroom facilities.....

[Brad Klein]

I know one thing. Ross designed more, better courses and over a wider area than Flynn, thereby having a wider influence. One piece of evidence is that the market can sustain three books on Ross - the Whitten-edited volume of Ross' writings, Mike Fay's account of great Ross courses, and my own bio of Ross.

I wonder how many books on Flynn the market can sustain? I sure wish Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison would give us a chance to find out.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I wonder how many books on Flynn the market can sustain? I sure wish Tom Paul and Wayne Morrison would give us a chance to find out.

That would require the loss of an internet connection from an ice storm for a few days, or something to that effect.

[TEPaul]

"Ross designed more, better courses and over a wider area than Flynn, thereby having a wider influence."

Brad:

There's no question Ross had a much wider influence than Flynn, but I'm not sure what you mean that 'Ross designed more, better course over a wider area'. I hope by that you mean exactly what it sounds like.

If by that you mean Ross designed more good courses than Flynn that wouldn't be hard for Ross numerically speaking since Ross has his name on about 7-8 times more golf courses than Flynn. But if you mean as a percentage to total linventory that Ross has more better courses I don't know that I'd say that.

On the other hand, considering that numerical difference in career inventory (app 350-400 Ross to app 50 Flynn) Ross has more, ordinary courses over a wider area than Flynn too.  

[wsmorrison]

Brad,

I don't know why you picked on Flynn, but your wish is our desire.  The manuscript is 99.75% completed.  We are just waiting for 2 things.  Coincidently, they both have Ross angles:

1.  Steven C. Rockefeller, Jr.'s hole by hole analysis of Pocantico Hills golf course.  By the way, JD Rockefeller, Jr. could have any golf architect in the world and it came down to two men:  Ross and Flynn.  No need to guess who was chosen as the one man for the job.

2.  Bob Crosby's final addition to the chapter analyzing Ross vs. Flynn plans at CC York.  Both Flynn and Ross were chosen to compete for the project concurrently.  The land boundaries were given as was the clubhouse site.  This is a fascinating study.  Did I send you the two sets of drawings and other archival information?  I would welcome your comparison and contrast between the two designs.  Are they representative of routing trends?  We think so.  Care to consider the materials yourself?

I would be glad to send you a copy of the manuscript as it stands today.  Your consideration would be immensely valuable to us.  Do you want me to?

Is there room for more than one Flynn book?  No.  For two reasons.  One, we're doing a comprehensive job with this one so the subject matter has been attended to in the 648 page manuscript (not including photos or drawings).  And two, it has become clear that even among golf architecture buffs many haven't seen or played a Flynn course so that the audience is likely small.  So there is no need for any more than one book.

I'll tell you one thing about Flynn.  We have a lot more information on his architecture than any other classic era architect.  Rand Jerris considers the collection of Flynn material unsurpassed in comprehensiveness.  This was a tremendous help to us as you would imagine.  We probably know more about what he did and how he did it than any other classic era architect.  

His portfolio of courses may be small, only about 41 or so original designs survive today.  But if you compared Flynn's total of 50 courses with Ross's best 50 (out of 400 or so) I dare say Flynn would come out on top.  His batting average was far better as was the staying power of his courses.

Why did so many Ross courses need redesigning shortly after completion?  7 of Flynn's 20 redesigns were on Ross courses.  All less than 10 years after completion and several within 4 years.  Why?

[wsmorrison]

That was a nice response, Tom.  Mine was probably a bit more impassioned.

[Mike Hendren]

Why did so many Ross courses need redesigning shortly after completion?  7 of Flynn's 20 redesigns were on Ross courses.  Most less than 10 years after completion.  Why?

Because the members feared they could not accomodate the bow and arrow game and might NLE?

Mike

[wsmorrison]

Before I read about Opa Locka I had never heard of Archery Golf.  Did anyone else?

[Mike Hendren]

Wayne,

At least tangentially considered on this thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=21070;start=msg380635#msg380635

It would be a blast.

Mike

[TEPaul]

Wayne:

I hope you're not including GMGC in one of those 7 of 20 Ross courses Flynn redesigned because he didn't really redesign anything---he apparently just fixed an agronomic problem with the greens.

[wsmorrison]

"If Flynn could consistently build more enjoyable courses than Ross, then I very much look forward to playing one of these gems."

Sean,

That's my opinion and probably few others.  Maybe Tommy included.  The fact is few people really have much experience with Flynn courses.  They tended to be concentrated (Philadelphia/Eastern Pennsylvania, Florida, Washington DC/Virginia, New York (3), Chicago (3), Massachussetts (2) and Denver (2)) so few people have experienced them.

If you come to Philadelphia to play golf on multiple Flynn courses, I know you will be thankful for the experience and wonder why nobody talks about Flynn.  I'd be happy to show you the grand tour of Flynn courses.

[Brad Klein]

Wayne, I picked on Flynn because it gave me the excuse to take a cheap shot at you and TEP and it worked!

648 pages w/o images? Yikes. Anyway, email me and I'll send you my address and I'd be happy to review the draft MSS.

Do you have a publisher?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood said:

"The Ross-ification of his courses by restoration specialists I think will ultimately hurt his legacy if it continues."

The "Ross-ification of Ross courses?! Hmmm, interesting term. Obviously all you mean by that is too many Ross grassed down bunker faces.

You probably are implying Aronimink again. You know, Tom, if you're gonna keep on with that one maybe you really should come over here and at least look at the golf course for the first time. BTW, the really great new super, John Goesslin, is planning on doing a bit of chopping on some eyebrows that grew down too much in the last few years, so we'll all see a little more sand.
 
 

[TEPaul]

"648 pages w/o images? Yikes. Anyway, email me and I'll send you my address and I'd be happy to review the draft MSS."

Brad:

Would you care to see my two and a half paragraphs too? They are unbelievably good. I'm trying to explain what a politically incorrect world William F lived in, worked in, drank in, whatever. My goal is to see how many people I can piss off and rile up.