[Jerry Kluger]

As I understand it, the new USGA rules allow players to use  GPS and similar systems to determine yardages if approved by the competition committee.  I was recently playing a private course in Florida and a gentleman from one of the companies offering these systems was marking the course in order to offer a handheld unit to the members which will tell them distances to various features on the course including distance to a fairway bunker, to the pin, to the front of the green, to the back of the green, etc.

My question is whether your club has taken a position as to whether such systems will be allowed when playing a round which will be posted for handicap purposes, and will the rule be different for competitions?  Also, do you feel strongly enough about the use of such an artifitial device that you will not use one even if it is allowed?

[PThomas]

mine does and I don't

[Brent Hutto]

Our club has begun allowing use of distance measuring devices for casual play and have not announced whether they'll be allowed during the club championship, etc. although everyone expects they will.

I almost never see people using rangefinders at my home course but a number of them have recently started using the little handheld GPS units.

[Jerry Kluger]

Okay, so what happens if you're on a trip to Myrtle Beach and playing 9 courses in 5 days - you can use GPS if you want to and you decide not to and come back home - do you post the scores?

[Tom Huckaby]

If the local rule is envoked, you post the scores regardless of what your personal choice is.  How could it be any other way?  Do you not post scores in which you bench a balky driver, preferring to hit 3wood off the tee?  This is just another choice of legal equipment.

As for me, I'll never use one, I don't need it.

But I won't at all be surprised if I play in tourneys where they are allowed.

[Jerry Kluger]

Huck: My question is this: say you're at a course you're unfamiliar with and choose not to use it while others do, now you go back to your home course and your scores are higher because of it - is this unfair in computing your handicap?

My other question is a rules question - if you're playing and you don't have one of those handhelds and one of the other players does - are you allowed to ask him what it says concerning your distance or for that matter what it said as does his distance - is it part of his equipment like a club and you can't ask him what he hit.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jerry:

You really think it's going to make THAT much difference in scores?

I don't.

Seriously, this just remains an equipment choice.  I know what you're asking - but in the end, it's just the same as one guy having a super-Titanium driver and another using old steel.  Does the guy with the steel not post?  And that has WAY more effect than use of range-finding devices does.

A better way to look at it is this:  one guy has a caddie, the other chooses to carry his own bag.  Of course the latter posts.

And re your other question, go read the new rules, if you care to.  In a nutshell all distance knowledge has become common knowledge and can be asked and given.

TH

[Dan King]

It looks like this has changed:

8-1/2 Exchanging Distance Information


Information regarding the distance between two objects is public information and not advice. It is therefore permissible for players to exchange information relating to the distance between two objects. For example, a player may ask anyone, including his opponent, fellow-competitor or either of their caddies, the distance between his ball and the hole. (Revised)

Rule 8-1/2 used to say: "A player may ask only his partner or either of their caddies to inform him as to the distance from a non-permanent object, e.g., his ball, to the putting green."

Dan King

Running through the Rules are underlying principles, that, like the steel rods which lie below the surface of reinforced concrete, serve to bind together the brittle material and to give it strength.
 --Richard S. Tufts

[Jerry Kluger]

Gentlemen: thanks for the clarification - just out of curiosity, what if a player without a handheld GPS asks his opponent who has one what his distance is and the other player refuses to answer - any consequence other than calling your fellow competitor a four letter word?

[Tom Huckaby]

Many thanks to Dan for giving the "new rules" cite I mentioned.  Yes, all distance info is now common knowledge and may be exchanged.

As for someone not giving such when asked, well the rules don't cover that - not yet anyway - but god knows that may be in a future decision!

I'd have to say the only recourse is the four-letter word, or just finding out for yourself.  Is distance really THAT tough to determine?

TH

[Dan King]

I think the four-letter word would be the only option. I don't think there is any sort of rule about lying about the yardage.

With the recent changes it seems like eventually most of the advice rules will go away. If yardage is public information, why not club selection?

Dan King

I am sure there is no body of professional games players who so cheerfully know so little of the rules of their game as do professional golfers.
 --Henry Longhurst, 1959

[Tom Huckaby]

Hmmmmm....

It is fun to speculate.  Or do you have some precedents here also, Dan?

 

Of course it's difficult to say what the USGA or R&A will do in the future, as so many other variables could come in we don't know about now... but in general, don't you find club selection a different matter than distance knowledge?

That is, SO much information is out there already re distance - markings on the course, caddies, etc. - that calling that advice just seems silly at this point.  In the old days of unmarked courses, distance judgment was a skill, and so naturally was treated as advice. The way things are today, it just seems silly to me to continue to treat it this way.  And no, we are not going back to unmarked courses.  

Club selection on the other hand remains a personal choice and a skill - that is, an APPLICATION of the common knowledge.  Thus I would think this ought to be kept under advice that can't be asked for or given - it remains a skill.

No?

[Mike Benham]

If yardage is public information, why not club selection?

Club selection done in a public place is information available to all.  How that information is shared is what the Rules of Golf control.  It is not against the rules to watch your fellow golfer pull his 9 iron out of the bag.

[Jerry Kluger]

Huck: To me distance is far more important than my opponent's club selection as there is no longer any uniform loft to a particular club, a player can play any number of shots using the same club, etc. - so what he played really is not as important as the distance - I have to rely on my own abilities and my own equipment to determine what club to hit.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jerry - you and me both - completely agreed there.

But given so much distance info is readily available anyway, what's the problem with sharing it?  Or to put it better, why should one be penalized for asking?  Remember the alternative is walking over to a sprinklerhead or whatever and finding out yourself... which way is quicker?

TH

[Jerry Kluger]

TH: Here's my problem with the handheld GPS - they look a lot like cellphones and boy do I hate cellphones on the golf course. There is no question that these GPS systems will soon have broadband capabilities and so on making golf less and less of a distraction from the everyday chores of the office, etc.

[Sean_A]

I am 100% against yardage guns, markers, coded pins and anything else which allows a golfer to think less (including caddies).  

I expect soon enough hand held devices will spit out wind direction and velocity.  Things are out of control.  

With this new yardage is public knowledge deal, what if a guy tells false yardage either innocently or on purpose?  I don't care about these ex-rules in friendlies, but in a comp. I would never answer a guy's yardage question.  That may be worse than asking if he can have a putt!  It just isn't on.

Ciao

Sean

[Tom Huckaby]

Jerry:

That's a damn good point - the potential for abuse here is huge.  I am just hoping - and figuring - that more golfers find these to be a pain than find them beneficial.

Another great point was made by Andrew Biggadike in another thread... one very possible outcome of all of this is that courses cease to mark themselves, and thus those who need distance info either must have some device, or can rent one from the shop - it becoming an income source like carts.

Very interesting, could happen.

But if that does occur, might not an equally viable outcome be a backlash against the devices, and more golfers choosing to eyeball things, bringing back distance judgment as a skill?

It's all conjecture.

I will say this:  the first course that refuses to mark itself has my applause.  The first course that does this AND rents out these devices has my everlasting scorn.

What I want is a course to remove all markings and NOT invoke the local rule.

I just don't see that happening.  Do you?

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

I am 100% against yardage guns, markers, coded pins and anything else which allows a golfer to think less (including caddies).  

I expect soon enough hand held devices will spit out wind direction and velocity.  Things are out of control.  

With this new yardage is public knowledge deal, what if a guy tells false yardage either innocently or on purpose?  I don't care about these ex-rules in friendlies, but in a comp. I would never answer a guy's yardage question.  That may be worse than asking if he can have a putt!  It just isn't on.

Ciao

Sean

Sean:

Devices can do this already (wind speed, altitude difference, etc.) - use of that is specifically prohibited in the new local rule.

As for the rest, oh hell yes it's caveat emptor re asking for info!  I just don't see the worth in penalizing those who choose to ask, nor those who give it, as it remains right there for the taking anyway.

[Jerry Kluger]

TH: The point is well taken that these devices will no doubt be a revenue source to the course until they become affordable to all.  Until then, I think they could very well slow down play as one golfer passes it to another who in turn dials in all the information he wants.

I must admit that I would have quite a bit of trouble today playing some courses for the first time without any yardage markers. Perhaps it might make me a better player as I probably would play more club and hit more greens which is typical of most of us.  

I would never dream of eliminating the caddie as a yardage source as I think some of the greatest enjoyment I have ever had was playing with a really good caddie who told me distances and taught me what shot should be played.  It can make the experience of playing a great course that much better.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jerry - it is going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

As for caddies, oh hell yes I'm with you - some of my most enjoyable rounds have been with such.  It's just this:  IF the golf world goes back to no distance markings, then caddies become SUCH a huge advantage, the answer then must be either huge increases in available caddies or we have a large ineqity.

Will the realities of the world today allow for widespread caddies, both in private and public golf?

I don't see it.

Thus if if goes this route - a VERY HUGE IF, btw - the answer might also be the prohibition of caddies.

But now we are getting into some wild speculation.

 

[jeffwarne]

I hate the obsession golfers have with distance markers-I believe judgement is an important part of the game.
But alas I am in the minority.
Therefore I prefer VISIBLE 150 markers that one can eyeball a yardage or pace off AS THEY WALK BY only.
I frankly think sprinklerheads SLOW the game down as players search for one from all over.
Sorry,but caddies slow the game even more as every shot becomes a powerpoint presentation on what the actual yardage is,what it's playing,and what club to use.Many players won't start this process until their caddy has returned from whatever other duties he has.
I am even OK with 100,150,200 elevated plates which are VISIBLE as long as golfers would take a quick glance for a reference and make an educated guess.

That said,carts with GPS do seem to speed play,particularly when you've driven it off the map and need some reference.This is especially true on courses with NONVISIBLE yardage markers.
So these hand held devices,used properly,may well speed up play,particularly for wild hitters.
That said,we won't be using or promoting these devices at my course this year.-cause I hate the idea.

[mike_beene]

I got one for Christmas.Easy to use and quick.

[Tom_Doak]

If they ever allow GPS at Crystal Downs I'm going to have to move to another country.

[Jonathan Cummings]

If they ever allow GPS at Crystal Downs I'm going to have to move to another country.

LOL !!

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