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PThomas

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does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« on: January 25, 2006, 08:18:32 AM »
doesn't it?  fewer "penal" trees means I have less chance of being penalized by my carefree slugging off the tee?

isn't this especially true for really young people or those golfers who haven't even been borne yet, since, if the trend continues, there will be more and more courses that have less and less trees?

thoughts?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

JohnV

Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2006, 08:30:49 AM »
Good question Paul.  There are members at Oakmont who have said that they think this is what will happen at the US Open next year.  

But, with proper firmness, well positioned bunkers that can cause fear in the hearts of any player and enough rough to make it hard to hold the difficult greens I think players will learn that being in the fairway is an advantage.

I have never considered trees to be a deterent to taking out the driver and hitting it hard (unless I thought I couldn't get it through a chute just off the tee.)  If anything, if a course is tree-lined the trees will keep errant shots closer to the proper line and unless they are of a nature that you can't get under them to play, don't offer too much trouble for the reasonably good player.

redanman

Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2006, 08:40:25 AM »
Good greens rely on great internal contours and surrounds to make impotent and unnecessary the great conifers and decidui.  You don't need trees to protect your course if the greens already do.

Oakmont will be just fine....

PThomas

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Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2006, 08:55:25 AM »
John and Bill:  do you know if Oakmont is planning on growing the rough longer than is normal for the US Open due to its lack of trees?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

mike_malone

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Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2006, 09:00:17 AM »
 If a course is designed well the "flogger" suffers by having the worst angle of attack. If a course is not designed well then the flogger benefits.

   If the terrain is flat and boring then tree removal is probably a mistake but leaving trees on hilly land is unnecessary.
AKA Mayday

TEPaul

Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2006, 09:07:54 AM »
"does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?"

Probably.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2006, 09:32:14 AM »
as Redanman said, good greens can help protect the course, true.....

but don't trees often provide an extra layer of defense?  i.e., they increase the chance of a double or triple bogey?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

TEPaul

Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2006, 09:38:29 AM »
"but don't trees often provide an extra layer of defense?  i.e., they increase the chance of a double or triple bogey?"

Paul:

Of course they do. But is increasing the chance of a double or triple bogey with trees really what good architecture wants to do?

redanman

Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2006, 09:42:25 AM »
Paul Thomas (Not Thomas Paul!)

Your Chicago love for trees is showing!

Should the members of Royal Dornoch vote to tree-line their fairways in defence of par?!?!

PThomas

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Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2006, 09:43:21 AM »
a good point Tom...yikes, I'm slipping into the "worry about designing a course for the 1% of players who are really low handicappers"! :o

it will be a very interesting Open at Oakmont...I haven't been there in person yet, but I remember all those trees from watching on TV
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

mike_malone

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Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2006, 09:46:17 AM »
 Paul,

   There have been numerous threads on trees on this site. Usually the responders get emotional. It would be helpful if you were more specific about where these trees are on the hole. Are they at turning points of doglegs? Are they parallel to the line of play? Are they right in front of other hazards? Are they close to the green? Are they on the flats or on the side of a hill?

   Also, what kind are they? Are they weeping willows or evergreens ? Or are they deciduous ?

    I can't really tell you until I know what is left after the trees are gone.
AKA Mayday

PThomas

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Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2006, 09:54:49 AM »
Bill V and Mayday:  yes, trees bother me less than many on this site :)

no, we shouldn't line Dornoch, cause that course was designed without them, I believe (and I know Oakmont was too!)

I am thinking primarily about trees that line both sides of fairways, like , gasp, Medinah, I guess (mentioning THAT course will surely get you tree haters emotional...not that I EVER get emotional...pls don't ask my wife that question, though ;))

again, my main question is , if we take out too many/all trees aren't we encouraging what many seem to abhor...i.e., just rip it as far as you can off the tee cause you'll only have a short iron at most in?  won't rough have to be grown very long in this case if we want to penalize wayward tee shots?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

redanman

Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2006, 10:00:02 AM »
Narrow tree-lined fairways take away the most satisfying shot in golf, the recovery from the sh*t - bringing your opponent to his/her knees!  :D

Ergo - trees - bad! OK, OK, OK... some trees are really great.  ;)

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2006, 10:18:03 AM »
Paul,
l
   Okay, let's talk about tree lined fairways. We will assume a fairly straight hole. If there are no hazards in the way of the second shot from way off line than the trees should stay. But most of these older courses were designed when there were no trees and the good designers placed angled greens, bunkering, maybe a water hazard, and slopes in the green to challenge the recovery shot.So, you are masking the design through trees. Why do this?

 Paul,

   Are the floggers really holding back now? Don't they just hit away now , confident in their ability?

AKA Mayday

PThomas

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Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2006, 10:51:33 AM »
Mayday:  point well taken, IF those old courses were well designed

but what if a course was designed without trees, and over the years some grew in, and they actually benefitted the architecture?

and maybe those floggers NEVER hold back, I don't know...I would think that maybe sometimes a bunch of trees might inhibit them, but they play a game with which I am not familiar
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

David_Madison

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2006, 11:00:29 AM »
We recently took out some trees on our course. The biggest impact was on a 480 - 515 yard par-5 with a green that sits right behind a deep ravine with other nearby death as well. Before, a drive into the trees on the right led to a simple punch out and then wedge on. Tons of boring 5's and an ocassional 1-putt 4. Now, there's lots more temptation to go for it (toughest shot in golf being a layup from 180-200 yards). Sure there's more flogging. But also a much wider spread of scores, and I'll bet that the average scores for single-digit handicap players on the hole is now UP.

David Panzarasa

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Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2006, 12:08:09 PM »
Narrow tree-lined fairways take away the most satisfying shot in golf, the recovery from the sh*t - bringing your opponent to his/her knees!  :D

Ergo - trees - bad! OK, OK, OK... some trees are really great.  ;)

 I dont agree with this statment. who can hit a 200+ yard shot from a bunker, at greens that are suppose to protect the course? or out of the sh*t?, or if there was water I dont think anyone (90+ %) is hitting the greens from there. why is it that trees are ruining recovery shots? it seems to me that recovery shots are just as hard if not harder from the sand, the sh**t, and surely the water where there is no shot yet people dont seem to have a problem with that.
 If the 18th on pebble beach was not water on the left but only trees, people would hate the whole...why is that? ifyou go in the water you have hit a terrible shot and are automatically hit with a stroke, no shot at all either. If there was no water but trees instead at least you have a chance to hit a recovery shot and one that would be just as easy/hard as one that would be a sand lined left side of entire whole.
   To me, and i have been on here for a long time now, it seems people want to be rewarded, or have a very good chance at going after the green if they miss the fairway. People must be spending a lot of time off the fairways. I totally 100% do not agree. And yet it contradicts the thought of greens that protect the course or hole. 1% of the people that play golf are hitting shots from 150-250 out of a bunker or out of the fescue on to a good green. If one were to hit into a pot bunker and have not shot at the green people would say it is perfectly placed sand trap, people just dont like trees. I think people need to hit some fairways and play the whole how it is suppose to be played.....i would think all architects meant holes to be played from the fairway not off the fairway.
  I was watching "playing with the pros" last night with Rocco Mediate (? spelling) and he was playing at Palencia CC in Florida. There was one whole where he was taking his second shot to a par 5, laying up, but making sure to be on the right side of the fairway so he would not be in trouble with the tree limb/branch on the left for his approach shot. people here would have issues with that, a tree that is going to screw up an approach shot, especially if the shot is coming from one off the fairway. I dont at all, because you simple are not suppose to hit it there. Yet, if it was water or a bunker people here would think it is strategic and great. If one can hit over/avoid water or out of a sand trap  I would think one should be able to hit under a tree limb/branches as well, if YOU put yourself in the situation to have to hit one of those shots.
 My last point....I did not get to play a ton this past year. So my game was certainly off. My best rounds by FAR were at Forsgate, Twisted Dunes and the pleassure of playing St. Andrews. I will not play these courses again! I could not hit a fairway, yet i had more birdie putts than i could remember. I had shots that were not hard at all and OPEN to the green from off the fairway or other fairways even. all in the 70's.
 I then played Colonia CC in NJ which is a tight little short course that killed me! because I could not hit the fairways again and i did not have direct shots at the green that were NEARLY as easy as the other three courses....same as montclair cc, metedeconk national and tpc sawgrass. And I cant wait to go back and play these courses again and get my revenge! and hit the ball where it is meant to be hit or pay the price!

  Modify, I should not say I would not play Forsgate again, I loved the greens! and from 50 yards and in was just eye candy to me.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 03:47:19 PM by David Panzarasa »

Kyle Harris

Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2006, 12:12:49 PM »
A lack of trees may encourage flogging...

that doesn't mean the floggers will do well.

Personally, it's all about the angle baby. Put crap and anything else near the optimum angle, and let the floggers bail out all day and not be able to score.

Scott Ramsay

Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2006, 12:36:00 PM »
You may think you can flog but it may not be the best option.
In the middle of a  tree maintenance program here at Yale. The work completed last year actually penalizes flogging.
Example.
 Previously, the second hole at Yale, if your tee ball was offline right it hit the tree line and usually dropped or even rolled back into the fairway. The drip line of the trees on the right was over the fairway. Now that the ground features are exposed and the slope of the ground repels long wayward shots further right and it is scary down there. Between the open sight lines,prevailing breezes and exposed earth features the second hole recquires some thought process. This is just one example but I have seen it repeated on other golf holes.

redanman

Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2006, 01:01:57 PM »
Dear David

You missed.  

I never said that all lies between fairways, or in bunkers must allow you full, unfettered access to the green.  Punching out all the time is b-o-r-i-n-g.

You also do have the right to have your ass kicked by narrow tree-lined corridors, I just find it boring.  If I could only play target (US) golf, I'd quit.

I will give you credit for your posting
Quote
I totally 100% do not agree

again, I think punch-outs are
b-o-r-i-n-g

May I recommend to you "Harbour Town Golf Links".  Even more mis-named than Pebble Beach Golf Links® - I guarantee by your standards (which are 100% OK for you to have!) that you'll love it, but it ain't no links no place where I ever been ;)

Love,
Bill

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2006, 01:04:21 PM »
 David,

  Let's talk about trees instead of water for #18 at Pebble. Since that would create a dogleg ,that is not the worse case. But if they could not be carried , you would diminish the thrill of that carry  over the water with the potential penalty of a stroke. Would you want to do that?

    When water is  a parallel hazard that simply punishes a mishit it is silly, also. It is the same for trees. If they aren't a factor in planning your shot , why bother with them.


    This goes to the Rocco trees. If you need to place a shot in a certain area so that the NEXT shot has to deal with a tree that is also a good thing. It is strategic.

  It is when the trees eliminate the strategy that they become stupid. They become a weak and unimaginative hazard that also is subject to change over time and hurts the turf.


  David Madison gives an excellent example of the benefits of tree removal.

   Golf is about planning your shot and dealing with the consequences on your next shot! I think punching out or taking a penalty without a stroke is not golf to me.

    Do you really enjoy being punished like that?
AKA Mayday

mike_malone

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Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2006, 01:10:54 PM »
 David,

    I love Twisted Dune because it is about hitting shots.  I certainly find "challenge" to be more fun than "punishment".

     Are you saying you have more fun when your mishits result in higher scores because of penalty strokes or limited recovery options? If so you may want to seek therapy :)
AKA Mayday

David Panzarasa

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2006, 01:37:21 PM »
Mayday,
 No i dont like punishment, but why should i be rewarded or not punsihed from hitting a bad tee shot? I liked twisted dunes as well (i just was stating my point) but that course and courses where trees are not in play or apart of the course are just so much easier to me. Some will say, wind will pick up and make it harder, ok. But from my own thoughts, all courses are meant to be played from the fairways. and if you miss a fairway then you should be in trouble. You dont have to have a angle at the green, you screwed up now pay for it. It just seems to me people want everything easy, and wide fairways and no trees is a the simple way of doing that.
 If people dont like trees or tree lined holes because of visuals and they like to see other holes and vistas, then i cant argue with that. But when i am missing fairway after fairway and getting up and down for par and birdies then that just is not golf or a true test to me.
 I dont like the theory either of how is you land in a bunker (waste area) from around 200 yards, it is how the hole is meant because there is still an angle and have a shot at the green. I dont think so, not unless your a scratch handi or a pro or got VERY lucky...and thats not going to happen again.

Steve Curry

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Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2006, 01:53:46 PM »
The margin shifts but the better play still prevails and the game is more enjoyable for all.  In an even match the well-placed shot has the advantage.  

Scott makes a great point as well that often tree removal incurs more penalty.  I significantly clear the right side of a hole here and the effect was that fewer balls were knocked down closer to the hole.

Steve

David Panzarasa

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Re:does the tree-removal trend encourage Flogging?
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2006, 01:59:57 PM »
Redanman,
 I do agree with you on all parts there! I guess I also will try and defend tree lined courses because I am all about them.
 Harbour Town I really want to go play and see what all the fighting is about that. I think that might be my type of course.
 
Mayday,
 also agree with you as well on what you said here. sometimes it seems people just cant stand trees and find reasons for them to be taken away.

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