What was the most telling confirmation that things had changed, distance wise ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I knew the world of golf had changed when Jack Nicklaus was doing the commentary at the British Open and announcing how John Daly should play the golf course.

Daly violated almost every one of Nicklaus's principles as he bombed the ball over almost all of the traditional obstacles, rendering them useless against his howitzer like drives.

As Bobby Jones said when watching Nicklaus, "He plays a game with which I'm unfamiliar".  And so it was with Nicklaus and Daly, only Nicklaus was dumbfounded as he watched Daly play TOC like it had never been played before.

That one day told me that things had changed, drastically, in the world of golf.

What event made you aware of the new age of distance ?

[PThomas]

I always remember, Patrick, watching Tiger hit a drive 379 on 15 at AGNC, and having a pitching wedge in

and that was in 1997 , when he won his first green jacket!

[Craig_Rokke]

Tiger will say it as well, some day: "He plays a game with which I unfamiliar."

The event that confirmed for me was retiring the old persimmon driver in the late 80's, in favor of a Burner Plus.
It bumped up driving yardage significantly.
You had to know that more club advances were on the way.

Now, at 42, I can go to the range, and when I'm not hooking my drive, it goes at least 20 yards further with a range ball, than my drives did back when I was a 23 year old, 4-day-a-week gym guy.

[Mark Brown]

Watching the pros play Firestone - South. When I was young and went there to see various tournaments including some classic duels in the Grand Slam between Nicklaus, Palmer, Trevino, Player, etc. Hitting medium and long irons into one brutal par 4 after another. Now it's often driver, wedge.

[Glenn Spencer]

Off the top of my head. 97 PGA at Winged Foot, Love III shoots 71-66-66-66 and it didn't seem like he was playing out of his mind or anything. By all counts this is one of the great courses in the country and it didn't get to Davis, normally he is apt to throw a few shots away. In my mind, this signaled that the game had gotten easier. Another one that comes to mind is the 2002 Masters, they went to all that trouble to lengthen the course and it did not seem to have any effect on most players.

[Glenn Spencer]

Another thought, of much less importance, I can't say exactly, but somewhere around 2001, the amateur golf tournaments started going to much more difficult pins. It seemed that there used to be some tough pins and some easier ones. This was about the time that I started to not see any easy pins and it seemed like somehow they were starting to find 72 really difficult ones. The scores never really seemed to change one iota. Also, the scores that were being shot at these times in the U.S. Am qualifier at Camargo, just seemed to be rediculously low.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
Easy one for me. 1989, Yale GC, 11th hole, ca. 350 yds., Gerry LaPlaca(a very Ct. good amateur) is one yard off the collar with his drive using a new Callaway S2H2 and a balata ball. 16th hole, he goes driver/ 9iron. It was like that all day. Il hit my very best effort on 12 and he was 50 yds. by me, using his 3 wood.

Professionally, I remember the example you are using and it's a good one, although Daly's performance at Crooked Stick ranks right up there.

Come to think of it, it's gotta be some performance of Daly's.
 

[Jim Nugent]

Paul almost beat me to it.  Same person -- Tiger -- same hole, ANGC 15.  But even when Woods was an amateur I read he had pitching wedge into the green.  That's when I understood why JN said Woods will win as many Masters as Nicklaus and Palmer combined.  

[Sean_A]

Pat picked out the moment I remember most as to how golf was going to change.  Jack's comments, murmurs and low chuckles were priceless.  I wish they would have put the camera on him.  

Ciao

Sean

[jeffwarne]

1965--Jack Nicklaus hitting 8 iron to #2 at Augusta en route to 64 and 271.

I think it's fair to say that there have always been LONG hitters that separated themselves which is why John Daly's exploits at Crooked Stick and St. Andrews don't stand out for me. (despite Daly's incredible natural length and technology assistance rendering strategy as we know it obsolete (for Daly )at St. Andrews)

The point is Daly,Tiger,Bubba or anyone else long doesn't phase me as much as David Toms AVERAGING 307 yards at Hawaii.
Or my assistant coming back last year with a new driver giving him 30 yards more.Yes 30.

The game shouldn't be about who spent the most time in a wind tunnel optimizing launch and spin conditions and putting in 300 different shaft and ball combinations to tweak (no, turbo boost ) performance.

[Mike_Cirba]

Around 1985, I was playing Hog Neck in Maryland and this short, rolly-polly guy, with no muscle tone and a funny swing had one of the new Callaway drivers (I still had persimmon) and he was blowing it about 30 yards past us consistently.  

The second time as about five years ago when I went back to play the course we played in high school in northeast PA.  Although I was now in my 40s with a shortened swing versus my 18 year old lithe body and past parallel backswing, suddenly with a modern driver, I drove on every single hole much further than I ever had under any conditions, often by as much as 30-40 yards.

[Cliff Hamm]

Watching Tiger play the amateur at Newport and hitting an 8 iron into the par 5 10th which I believe is about 520 or so.  Then he also hit 8 iron on the 14th, I believe, par 3 of about 205 with a slight breeze behind him.  This is a game that is not only unfamiliar to me, I don't recognize it in the least.

[Tom Huckaby]

This all assumes that moment has happened. I'm not at all sure that it has.

But anyway, Pat also picked the day of one of the 3 or for most quoted golf commentaries rehashed time and time again by my buddies and me. Sean alludes to it.  It goes like this.  Daly's on leaving 16th tee, after hitting another driver there, one of several in a row Jack advised against.  They ask Jack "what do you think Daly should do these last 3 holes"?

Jack:  "Well I tell you one thing he should do - he should hand his driver to someone in the crowd - pick it up after 18."

Flash forward to 17 tee...

Jack:  "Rossie, what club does he have there?"

Rossie (in his best hang-dog voice - all you Rossie fans know what I mean - this time you could tell he was almost afraid to say anything):  "he's got the driver, Jack."

Jack:  "OH, NO!!!!!!!" (said with a mixture of shock, anger, sorrow that just plain had to be heard).

Recounting all of this has given us fantastic comedy over the years.

In any case, as most of you recall, Daly then proceeded absolutely bomb one right into the middle of the tiny neck up near the green - I swear this had to be one the greatest drives I have ever seen in championship golf.  Now I'm not at all prepared to say that meant anything was "out of control" -I will just say it was one hell of a drive.

BTW, you want evidence of things being out of control, if yo believe it was/is?  Corey Pavin driving 18, as he did in that same Open.

TH

[SB]

For me, it was watching an old Shell's Wonderful World of Golf.  Arnold and someone else were at some course in Vegas that looked as hard as a rock.  After a drive, the announcer said,

"Arnie really killed that drive.  With the roll, it's almost 250 yards".

[Tom Huckaby]

Hmmm... but shivas, what say you to those of us who have had none of those moments?

I've been at plenty of famous clubs where to this day, I'm still hitting more club from the same places as old pros did... with the assumption I only got to those places either because it was a par 3, or I played shorter tees.

Example:  16 Cypress.  Absent helping wind, I hit 4wood as a kid, driver every time since.  In famous old stories, absent hurting wind, pros always hit some sort of fairway wood, sometimes driver, many times a long iron.  I sure as hell have never hit LESS club than any pro from the past there.

18 Pebble - me, driver, 3wood, some sort of pitch - I've never reached the green in two.  Pros didn't either until recent times, but still, the places they got their tee shots to, and the clubs they used to lay up, are still a LOT stronger than me even today....

I'm not doubting that the upper echelon, high-swing speed folks can crush the ball to places the old guys never dreamed of.  I absolutely believe you hit PW into 18 Merion.

But I have no doubt if I ever play there, I'm gonna be lucky to get it to 210 in, and for me that's the equivalent of a 1iron if I carried such a thing.  I guess it says a little that I've caught up to Hogan, but hey, time ought to march on at least a little.

I just really do think the sky might be falling on the very upper echelons, but for us average joes, well the sky remains very much in place.

TH

[Craig_Rokke]

I had an experience almost identical to Shivas' at # 18 Merion, only I
had an 8 iron in my hand for the approach.  I was excited with the
final resting spot of my drive, but I also felt a little guilty, looking
back at where Mr Hogan was.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

It's interesting that you mentioned the 18th at Merion.
From a personal perspective I had almost the same experience and the same thought process, only I didn't hit a wedge, but, I did hit far less than a 1 or 2-iron.

After I hit my approach, I had a flashback to that famous photo of Hogan on # 18 and said to myself, "something's not right here."  "There's no way that a local amateur should be far beyond one of the greatest players of all time."  This can't be good for golf, even though it was good for me."

[Tom Huckaby]

OK, all of this evidence is killing my argument.  But it's not buried yet.

Explain to me better 18 Merion and what's involved in the drive.  As I understand it, I don't think I personally could get closer than 210 in, playing from the same tees as Hogan.  Now me getting 210 in could easily mean shivas getting it to 150 or less, and 150 is a PW for him.  But how far off am I on this, if I am at all?

See I'm not giving up just yet on the thought that it's the upper-echelon fast-swingspeeds that have the problem, not us average joes.  Mucci's example hasn't changed this.  And until proven otherwise I'm just gonna assume Craig R. is just another big hitter like shivas.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

Playing from Hogan's tee, you'd get a lot closer than 210 yards.

Remember, once over the initial crest, the fairway falls down, away from you and to the left.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

I really don't know the hole well at all. But I'll take your word for it.  Based on distance of the hole, I figured 210 in would be a damn good tee shot for me.  If there is elevation/roll help, then OK, I'm gonna get closer.

But that doesn't refute my 16 Cypress example... nor my 18 Pebble... the old pros still hit less club than me on the former, and got it farther out off the tee than me on the latter.

I could be the one guy who's failed to benefit that much from modern equipment, who knows?  Just understand, I am not shy about procuring technology.  And I don't see these crystal-clear defining examples that you guys do.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

Having watched the Crosby since I was a kid, I don't recall anyone coming close to the green in two, with woods, ...... until recently, when they're doing it with irons.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

I know that, I said that in my first post.  The question here isn't whether the top level pros hit it a lot farther than they did back in the day.  They do.

My contention though is that it hasn't had much effect at all on little oh Joe Q. Public Huckaby.  And it hasn't.

So why should I think the sky is falling?

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Huckaby,

You've played with me several times so you know I'm not a gorilla by any means.

The last time I played Merion I drove it to exactly where the Hogan plaque was.



The only problem is that we were playing from the new tee, which makes the hole about 500 yards where Hogan played it about 450.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

For the reasons that Shivas and I cited on the 18th at Merion.

[Tom Huckaby]

Mike:  OK, understood.

It must be just me.  But I swear to all of you I do not achieve these distance gains you all seem to.  In fact I hit the ball shorter than I did as a kid with persimmon.  And as I say, I am not shy about technology, going damn near to the lengths Geoffrey Childs and other BSG-types do.  Sure I've aged and gotten fat, but hey, I'm not THAT bad.

If all of this were like you guys say, I'd be bombing the ball out places I've never been before, and hitting 150 yard PW's.  Fact is, 150 was a 7iron for me as a kid, remains a 7iron today.

I just don't get it.  The sky is not falling for me.

And I don't see it falling for a whole hell of a lot of other people I play with, either.  Oh sure, I play with plenty of shivas-type bombers.  They get it out places they really have no right to.

I just do continue to maintain that the average golfer (swing-speed-wise) like me, hasn't seen a whole hell of a lot of change in the game.

But maybe it is just me and the man average joes I play with.

TH