[David_Elvins]

I'm more interested in the fact that no one has yet provided me with a detailed answer to the main bone of my contention - namely, that it is special only because it is in Oz.

I named the great holes, then said that many of the others wouldn't be given a 2nd glance in the UK, an no one has come forward to say why they would be.

You listed 5 great holes.  I listed another 2 (3 and 4).  That makes 7 great holes.  5-7 great holes makes a great course if the other holes have no major architectural stuff ups.  You have not pointed out any stuff ups other than bunker placement on 2.  

No one is debating your innitial contention because you contradict it when you say that the course has 5 great holes and no major dog holes.  That to me qualifies it as a special course right there.

I wouldnt worry too much about people answering you directly, its still a good thread with some good ideas.

[Sean Walsh]

Mark,

Yes to some degree you do have a point it is perhaps MORE special to us because it is in Oz.  

I would not agree that it is ONLY special because it is in Oz.

I think any course that can match it with the top few courses of the sandbelt has plenty to recommend it.  I don't know about Gunnamatta but I cannot think of any other new courses that have been able to do that.  Maybe you can set me straight.  I think a conservative rating would put it between number 4-6 in Austalia.  This in turn places it somewhere in the top 100 in the world.  I would think that's an achievement in anyone's book.

As I have in an earlier post matched it to Lahinch.  Just think if someone came along and built a new course in Ireland that matched it's quality (what would it be 4-6 in a country full of very good - great links).  I think that would create a similar stir to what Barnbougle has here.  Barnbougle is a much better course for instance than The European Club and that has attracted plenty of acclaim in the Links Rich European market.    It is a ten time better course than Doonbeg on what I would consider a similar quality of land (even the drive from the main road towards the dunes looks similar).  

Perhaps Jack MARR if he is tuning in could comment..

[Matthew Mollica]

It's an interesting point you make about Barnbougle Mark. I can't agree though...

The course debuted as a world top 50 in the minds of most respected judges. It's on awesome land, and features many holes which are flawless. It's poorer holes are still good (maybe that's where we disagree?). It has drawn thousands of visitors from other continents. It's been co-designed by arguably the best architect currently going around, and certainly one of the most popular.

I don't think you can say that the course is only special because it's in Australia. Were it to be located thirty minutes south of San Diego or a short drive north-west of Portland, it might be even more 'special'. What's more, it's quality might be greater than you currently feel.

Mark, you've played RMW, RME, NSW, RA, KH, Barny, National Moonah, St. Andrews Beach (Gunnamatta), and Woodlands, as well as Commonwealth. You ARE in a position to thumb nail an Oz Top Ten. Can you give us an idea of where they all sit in your mind?

MM

[Shane Gurnett]

Matthew,

As you are now a world famous course ranker   if you were to rank just the three courses mentioned in this thread, where would you place Barnbougle, National Moonah and St Andrews Beach (in what order and how much of a "gap" between them)?

For mine its Barnbougle at one, then a sizeable gap to St Andrews Beach, with similar gap then to the Moonah course at the National. All good courses, but a clear pecking order in my opinion.

[Matthew Mollica]

Agreed Shane. Spot on with the order, and the gaps between them. Way off with the famous bit though.  

MM

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Dear Mark,
In your original post, you said "Top Ten yes, but closer to ten than Top Five."

When someone makes such a definitive statement, I would assume they have it pretty mapped out. If they do, your second statement becomes even more confounding. "I haven't played enough of them to make that judgement, but National Moonah isn't even close"

Matthew,
I wish we had met as well, I am sure that we shall some day, I look forward to coming back to Oz.

[Jason Topp]

Mark - your topic raises an interesting question that I have pondered quite a bit.  Because I played the course in such heavy wind, my experience differed from yours quite a bit based on weather alone.

I did find it a bit strange for my first round of golf in Australia to be at a links course that seemed like Ireland.  I'm sure that its location makes the course unique.  Having travelled to Scotland and Ireland 3 times, that factor probably detracted from my enjoyment of the course rather than enhanced it.  I have played links golf.  I looked forward to trying sandbelt golf.  Barnbougle feels much more like a modern Lahinch or Ballybunion with more interesting greens.

Ultimately, I agree with Ran's view that the course should be judged on the merit of the holes.  I appreciate your commentary because I learn a lot more when there is some dispute, rather than universal praise.

Nonetheless, I would add several holes to your list of outstanding holes on the course:

3 - I think the visual challenge of trying to figure out how hard one can hit a tee shot towards that bunker on the left is memorable and the tight bunkering around the green creates incentive to be aggressive off the tee.  This is a terrific hole.

4 - for the reasons discussed

5.- I think this is a wonderful par three that does not get adequate acclaim.  Our differing reactions may be due to the wind.  This hole is terrific downwind because it is pretty intimidating hitting a 7 iron to a 210 yard hole over that bunker 50 yards short of the green.  I'm sure the hole is less thrilling in light winds.

13 - I really liked the challenge of this big green with the need to get it in the right area.

16 - I played from the set of tees one up from the back, and I think this is a better hole from there because you can see the green better and the dune obscures the wind that you need to contend with.

I also would add that I thought the green contours were the most interesting to putt on that I played on the trip.  A putt was never straight and it seemed that you usually had to take a couple of subtle breaks into account when you had the opportunity.

I did not get to see St. Andrews Beach and would have loved to compare them.  I think Barnbougle would be considered an outstanding course regardless of where it was located.

For Americans, an interesting comparison is Barnbougle vs. Sutton Bay.  I liked the greens and the routing at Barnbougle better.  In particular, I liked the occassional change of direction on Barnbougle to break up the wind that one plays in.  On the other hand, I felt that Sutton Bay had better par fives and long par fours.  If I had to choose one, I'm not sure which way I would go.

[David_Elvins]

I liked the greens and the routing at Barnbougle better (but)....If I had to choose one, I'm not sure which way I would go.

Architecturally speaking, if the greens and routing of one course are better, what could the other course do to possibly make up the difference?

[Mark_F]

David:

Alas, I fear your short term memory problem is getting worse.

I never said that the course had any architectural stuff ups.  
I did say that the rest were okay, but nothing special.  If you can extrapolate that into stuff ups, let alone major stuff ups, you have an incredible and unique insight into what people mean when they say something. Chuck in your day job with Mike pronto, and head for Canberra.  You have a wunnerful career as a political speechwriter ahead of you. I bet the super is better than your current deal, too.


Ben:

There's nothing confounding about it at all.  If I have played the best, a couple in the middle and a couple at the end, then I think I can say with a reasonable degree of confidence where another course is going to fit.

If not, why not?  If you've played more than me, why don't you give us your top ten?

Matt:

I don't think where we disagree is whether the poorer holes are good, more the notion that 'flawless' - or whatever other description comes to mind - automatically means that they are good.

Take the 10th.  I guess you could call it flawless?  It's 400-odd metres, yet to me, the first 300 aren't interesting at all.  I was reminded of 13th beach - bunkers, grass and dunes along one side, flat farmland along the other.

The last 100 or so are good, culminating in a great green.  I was reminded very much of the 2nd at Macrihanish whilst playing it - a drive out into a wideish fairway, then a second uphill to a strongly contoured green.  

Except, the 2nd at Macrihanish has a more interesting drive, because you have to be aware of the burn 240 odd in front of the tee - clearly my cojones were swollen that day too, since I sent it straight into the water - but then you have a fantastic blind second shot up over the hill to one of the most inspiring and unique greens you can come across.

And so it goes at Macrihanish, with a great 3rd, 4th and 5th to name just three other great holes for you (and Ben).

I just didn't find that inspiration at Barnbougle.  Yes it has some great holes, yes it has some fantastic contours in the fairways, yes it has some great greens, but to me there is something lacking about the place.

The other holes are just holes. Maybe there is nothing lacking architecturally, but I think they lack the uniqueness, memorability and inspiration of the other holes. They just aren't the same.

And rankings?  Some people (a lot) think Birkdale might actually be one of the 30 best courses in the world.  Cruden Bay makes it into the top 100 on Golf magazine's World list, yet it floats around closer to 70-80 on British Golf magazine lists. Who's right?

I haven't played NSW or RM East or RA.  I haven't any interest into going to Adelaide, but the other two I hope to knock off soon.  

Kepp this in mind, though.  In the Confidential Guide, NSW is only a 7.  RM East only a six. That places them behind Commonwealth (.

[David_Elvins]

David:

Alas, I fear your short term memory problem is getting worse.

I never said that the course had any architectural stuff ups.  
I did say that the rest were okay, but nothing special.  

You could have saved yourself writing all those words if you had read my post properly.  I know that you never said the course had any architectural stuff ups.  That was the point that I made.  If a course has 5 great holes and no architectural stuff ups, (AS YOU SAID) in my mind it is a great (or special) course.  

[David_Elvins]

Mark,

I think I see where you are coming from and I partly agree.  You seem to place a great deal of weight on originality.  Originality in any field of arts is a worthy attribute yet a major problem is that nothing is truly original and everything is a progression of ideas.  A person's judgement of what is original is based largely on their scope of experience.  Whilst you have seen first hand, the great Irish and Scottish links that have no doubt inspired Barnbougle Dunes, I am sure that every post WW2 course in the world has a similar group of inspirations, you just haven't seen them yet!

[Tom_Doak]

Jason:  

You should compare Sutton Bay to Barnbougle because you are likely the only person who has played them both, unless Graham Marsh or Mark Amundson have been to Tasmania recently.

Mark:

I really don't mind if you don't want to put Barnbougle in your top five courses in Australia, but the logic of your comparisons is starting to wane.

I agree that the 10th at Barnbougle is a bit similar to the 2nd at Machrihanish.  I thought of the latter hole as soon as the green was half done, and I realized we would have to have a lot of contour so you could see it comfortably from the fairway below.  I would agree it's not quite the great natural hole that Machrihanish has, although, having a burn 240 yards off the tee which causes you to lay up is not a factor in Mac's favor.  And, the 10th at Barnbougle is 470 yards, so do you really think we should have filled up the landing area with hazards knowing that any of them would preclude getting home in two?  I think there is a place on any great course for the occasional shot which is a "breather," especially if you still need to hit a solid drive just to get home in two.

But what annoys me is how you keep switching arguments.  You don't actually compare Barnbougle and Machrihanish; you let pass the entire back nine at Machrihanish to compare its best stretch of holes to the flattest stretch of the Barnbougle property, but a piece that had to be used to make the rest work.

I think the real reason for your reaction is simply one of high expectations.  Now that Barnbougle is ranked so highly, you expect every single shot to blow your knee socks off.  If you had just started at #1 tee knowing nothing about the course would you really not have been inspired?

[Philippe Binette]

The only trouble I could have (been there in construction time, not played) with Barnbougle is the relation with the routing and the wind. If the trade wind is really consistent, you could grow tired of playing the course 5 rounds in a row with a straight into the wind start (first 4) and a straight into the wind finish (last 4) where odds are you are piling up a big score...

But since most people go there for 2-3 days, it shouldn't be a problem...

As for the rankings, it would be really hard to beat Royal Melbourne, (the best of all of the courses I've seen in my mind) because I feel that RMGC can really provide fun golf for everybody day in day out...

[Philippe Binette]

'I think the real reason for your reaction is simply one of high expectations.  Now that Barnbougle is ranked so highly, you expect every single shot to blow your knee socks off.' T.Doak

Tom is right on that one, people think that all the great courses are unbelieveable from shot 1 to 72 (and more), which is definitely not the case...

There are some ordinary shots and holes (not great, not bad; as far as playing) on every world top 25 courses I have seen.

Nobody can say that the 3rd at RMGC (west), the 4th hole at Shinnecock Hills, 2nd at Oakmont, 7th at Merion make them fall off their chair.

The thing with the best courses in the world, is that:
1) they have less ordinary looking holes then most courses
2) those holes are normaly good, but look tame compare to the rest.
3) they are used properly as a breather in the routing sequence (just think of what is coming after the 3rd at RMGC, cool tee shot at 4, awesome par 3 5th, all world par 4 6th.)
4) they are fitting in the course landscape (I don't know if there's a site that could give you 18 holes world-class holes in a row)
5) Most courses built in the last 25 years would be better courses if they had 18 ordinary holes like the ones I just named above.

[Tom_Doak]

Philippe:

I agree with your point above, but you're selling the 3rd at Royal Melbourne (West) short.  I know that Ben Crenshaw thinks it's one of the best holes there, and I like it a lot.  It's in the same category with the 15th at Crystal Downs -- a really great hole without the flash.

[Chris Kane]

Philippe, 3W is one of the great holes at RMGC, one look at the green complex shows that.  

[Philippe Binette]

I hesitated a lot before putting the 3rd at RMGC in that category... at first I only wanted to point out that the tee shot on that hole is not going to blow anyone away, but to simplify the comment, I wrote 3rd hole...

that's only a proof that it's difficult to point out weaknesses at RMGC..  but I could imagine a good player hitting 3-wood, 8-iron middle of the green, 2-putt and miss all the fuss of that hole... (again it falls into the direct-strategy/subtle strategy debate...)

I think there are some holes perceived as weak on great courses is a relative matter... it's probably tougher to judge on a site like Barnbougle Dunes due partly to the scenery.

The landscape at RMGC (althought very beautiful) is more consistent there so you can really focus on the inside feature of the course. The landscape at Barnbougle changes a little more from hole to hole and I could understand that it influence the perception of some holes. You'd have a hard time separating the holes from the landscape to properly evaluate them (I'm not sure I would want to do that.)

[Jason Topp]

Jason:  

You should compare Sutton Bay to Barnbougle because you are likely the only person who has played them both, unless Graham Marsh or Mark Amundson have been to Tasmania recently.

quote author=David_Elvins link=board=1;threadid=21344;start=25#msg386998 date=1137314115]

I liked the greens and the routing at Barnbougle better (but)....If I had to choose one, I'm not sure which way I would go.

Architecturally speaking, if the greens and routing of one course are better, what could the other course do to possibly make up the difference?

In thinking about these questions, I decided to choose which holes I would prefer to play if I chose the best 18 out of the 36:  

3's

BD - 5, 7, 13
SB - 9, 13

I think the par threes at both courses are good, and I really like the 2nd and 13th at Sutton Bay,which could easily make the list, but the 17th sort of seems like a desert course shot to me that is so different from the rest of the course and the one in the middle of the front nine is a little bit shallow.  I included 5 on this list because I could not convince myself to take any off of this list.

5's

Any 4 of the 5 at SB.  I really like the opportunities off the tee to sneak it past a bunker and catch a downslope on several of the par fives.  Which ones will depend on which way the wind is blowing

4's

BD - 3, 4, 6, 12, 15, 17

SB - 3, 10, 16


In what turns out to be a wimpy result, I come out with the courses even.  I think the longer holes are stronger at Sutton Bay but the shorter holes are stronger at Barnbougle.  

I appreciate the effort to change direction at Barnbougle at the 7th and the 13th in an effort to break up constantly playing in the same direction and prefer the course starting in the middle of the narrow site so that there is less of the sensation of fighting or playing with the wind for long stretches of time.

On the other hand, it is fun for me to just haul off and whack a driver.  For me, an ideal driving course allows me to do that, but forces decisions associated with the choice.  At Sutton Bay, I think driver was the play off every tee, with the decision being what portion of the fairway to aim.  At Barnbougle, I felt I either needed to be or should be more defensive off the tee.

What I really need to do is go to both places again and conduct further analysis.    Maybe in the next life.  2005 was pretty good.

[Mark_F]

David,

Yes, you are quite right, I do value uniqueness in my golf courses.  Quirk and unorthodoxy, too.

I usually bite at the Post Modern theorem that there is nothing original any more, but I won't this time.  I'll simply say; nature IS truly original.

Tom,

Yes, of course my reaction is one of possibly unrealistic expectations.  As to whether I would have thought it was more stellar without those expectations, I probably would have.  But I would also like to think that ultimately I would still end up with a somewhat similar position, because that would mean I was thinking about the course.  


I don't believe I am switching arguments.  I doubt that there would be too many people who think the 2nd at Mac is one of the better holes on the course. And aren't the 6th and 9th at Mac, as well as the 11th and 16th, the holes they had to put up with to make the rest of course work, as 2 and 10 may be at Barnbougle?  I actually think the back nine at Mac isn't worth dismissing - if you are - so easily.  The 10th, 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th holes seem pretty good to me.

I guess where I am coming from - apart from unrealistic expectations, of course - is Philippe's point Number two below;these holes are normally good, but look tame compared to the rest.

I'm struggling to understand why they are good; they certainly aren't bad - aside from 2 - they are just okay. Played over some fantastic contours, but still...

And I liked the 1st, which everyone else describes as a tame beginning.  I also didn't think the 16th was the dog others have made it out to be - at least not from the middle tee.

[David_Elvins]

Mark,

I did not say that there was nothing original left, just that ones perception of what is original is strongly related to ones experiences.

But back to the good stuff.
In analysing some of the lesser holes at Barnbougle Dunes, How would you compare the 6th at barnbougle to the 10th at St Andrews Beach?

Tom,
I know it has been a while since you have been there but I am like Mark and prefer the 16th from the middle tee.  What was the rationale behind each of the three teeing grounds, in particular the black tee on the left?

[Mark_F]

David,

It's all right, I know what you meant; I just hate that Post Modern concept that there is nothing original anymore.  I argued my way through Uni spitting blood that there was.

6 and 10?  

I think 6 is a much more straightforward hole.  You can feel how far the dune is, you can see the contours on the fairway and see how they will influence the bounce and run of the ball if you play that sort of shot.  You can't see the dip behind the green, of course - unless you walk the course first like I did  .  

10 at Gunnamatta is a totally different animal.  On the tee it looks much further away than it is. I think it is a hole where you strongly need to think 'negatively', and allow for what sort of miss you want, and it then catches you out for not thinking that.  That's why Brian thinks it is too small  His greens in reg stats at The National are obviously out of proportion to the real world.  

Then you get down on the fairway and realise it isn't that far at all.  And even tough the green is clearly on the small side, it's amazing how many go straight for the pin over the left side of the green - not much of a play in that, unless you pull it off perfectly.  Better to go at the green straight on, and if you just miss, the ball will only trundle 10 yards back into a swale, leaving you a simple chip back up instead of a touchy 50 metre pitch.

I think it's Australia's 'Foxy' hole from Dornoch.  

[Philip Gawith]

David - I am surprised that you should consider the 6th at Barnbougle a "lesser" hole vs the rest; and as for 10th at SAB - I think that is an excellent hole.

As for 6th: I found the mound on the right deceptively far to carry and if you don't carry, you snag and are in trouble. But even if you drive well, it is a pretty challenging second because you likely have to move the ball a bit right to left bringing the ball into an elevated green. So I think both the drive and the approach present a challenge and I think is a very good hole.

At SAB 10, I think the drive is a bit easier - but possibly more strategic in the sense that there is more choice where you can land vs 6 at Barnbougle. But the second is even more difficult, especially if the prevailing ? wind blowing right to left. You just have to hit a very good second shot to hit that green. I don't think it is as difficult as Foxy - the hole is a bit shorter so you should have less club in your hand, in general - but I recognise the analogy.

[David_Elvins]

Sorry for the confusion Phillip.  I really rate the 6th hole,  when the wind is blowing from the east it might just be my favorite hole on the course.  I was a bit suprised that Mark described it as a lesser hole, hence my comparision with the 10th at St AB to get a bit more detail as to how he rated it.

[Tom_Doak]

David:

Regarding the alternate tees on #16:

The "middle" tee was always my choice for the best tee location there.  However, it was a restricted space.  We thought if we put all the tees there, they would be chewed up in no time.  With the steep bank in front, going straight forward made no sense at all, so we looked to both sides for options.

Mike Keiser liked the high spot on the right, he picked it out while I was still doing the routing for the back nine, saying that he thought the average golfer would love playing from up there even if the hole wasn't as good.  Since we were scrambling for tee space, I built it as an option.  Some people do love it up there, though when it's really windy, it's tough to stand up.

A couple of people, including Brian Schneider my lead associate on the job, and Greg Ramsay too, liked the tee location on the left, so we built it, too.  However I did not intend for it to become the "back" or championship tee -- they designated it as such because the hole is a couple of yards longer from there, and because no one asked me when they were doing the yardage book!  

[Brian Walshe]

Mark,

I had been content to sit back at my desk in the golfing wasteland known as Sydney and watch this thread with interest.  Seeing as you have dragged me into it I'll add my two cents worth.

Firstly all the really good courses have a depth to them that takes time and many rounds in different conditions to truly appreciate.  I can wander around StAB and see the broad brush lay of the holes.  I’ll pick up the big elements but I’ll miss the majority of the smaller more intricate pieces, the little bits of movement and subtle slopes that make it more than just another track.  I also haven’t seen the impact that different wind directions and speeds have.  I would expect that you would know far more about StAB than me or just about anyone else as you’ve played it more than probably anyone on the planet.   The issue becomes one of comparing something you know intimately with something you don’t.  Chances are that the course you know and love will always win.

For me Barnbougle is a better overall course than StAB.  Firstly Barnbougle has about 5 of the dozen or so “Oh My God” moments in Australian golf.  The first time you walk over the hill on 5 at NSW, the first time you walk onto the 5th tee at RMW and see 5 and 6.  At BD it’s walking off the 4th green and onto the beach.  I stopped dead in my tracks and stared.  Walking onto the 7th tee and just staring at that green with the dune and ocean behind.  Walking down 9 and suddenly finding yourself almost on the beach.  You can’t separate the golf course from the land it sits on and the land at BD is dramatically more spectacular than StAB.  

As for the golf holes, I think that both have some great holes and both have a couple of lesser ones.  At BD I think 3, 4, 6, 7, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17 and 18 are all terrific holes.  I actually like 2 a lot as it’s a great example of a good hole on the worst piece of land on the site and only suffers because of the quality of the holes after it.  One thing about 2 I think you mentioned that always worried me a little was the fairway bunker left.  It’s the right place for it but there is just something about the shape of it or the way it sits on the land that just doesn’t quite feel right to me.  I love the green complex.  I’m not a fan of 8 for a number of reasons I’ve discussed at length.  It seems more forced than the other holes and 16 I just don’t get particularly after the quality of 7 and the fun factor of 13.

At StAB I think you have one of the best holes I have seen in 2.  It’s my favourite short 4 anywhere.  3 looks fantastic but I’m not sure it plays as well as it looks.  The green seems a little over the top in terms of the shelf left (how do you get the ball anywhere near that?) and the reverse slope of the back half of the green.  I really like 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 (I’d like to see the green a few more times, its very severe in places) 11, 12, 14, 16 (which I really like) and 18.  The par 5’s are good without being exceptional.  I’m sure there is something about 13 I don’t get.  The first 300m to me is the worst element on the course and seems to be all about getting you to a point 150m out where suddenly normal service resumes.  Obviously after the 12th green you had to get to the 13th green but I can’t help but think there must be a better way.  15 is pretty bland.  

On 10 you should at least get what I said right before you have a go    It’s not the size of the 10th green I have an issue with.  It’s the size combined with the lack of a place to miss and the nature of the penalty when you do miss all happening in a location where the wind blows often and hard.  4 is a narrow green for the length of hole yet there is a ton of room left where you can miss and still have a go at par.  Likewise 8 is a small target but there are a couple of places you can miss and probably scrape together an up and down.  There is no easy miss on 10 and the trouble around it in terms of bunkers and slope mean that up and downs will be few and potentially far between.   Is that a bad thing?  Some would say no, I just think it’s out of character with the rest of the course.

So is Barnbougle over rated?  Not to me.  It is a must play for me and equals RM in terms of “religious” experience in Australian golf as we have nothing else that comes close to it in terms of location, site, feel and quality of the holes themselves.

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