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Ian Andrew

The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« on: January 11, 2006, 10:48:46 AM »
A couple of nights ago I found myself going through the original Word Atlas of Golf. The book is still really good reading after all this time. I was surprised how well the top 18 holes list held up with the exception of Muirfield Village. I didn't get it's inclusion before and fell more confident it doesn't belong now.

It got me thinking about what holes should go in and out of this list. After all the list is 30 years old now.

What would you change?

Please explain why, I don't want just names, there is nothing to learn from a name. Explain why the hole should go and what should go in it's place.

 The following list is the top 18 holes (I did this off the top of my head - so please send any corrections). Remeber this was one hole per course and the hole must have the same hole number to honour the original list.

I'm insisting on if you haven't played the hole, you can't make the substitution. You must know the hole to change it, or to add it.

1. St. George's
2. Scioto
3. Royal Durban
4. Baltusrol
5. Mid Ocean
6. Royal Melbourne
7. Teeth of the Dog
8. Pine Valley
9. Carnoustie
10. Muirfield Village
11. The Country Club
12. Augusta National
13. Harbour Town
14. St. Andrews
15. Oakmont
16. Carnoustie
17. Cypress Point
18. Pebble Beach
« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 10:50:20 AM by Ian Andrew »

Ed Tilley

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Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2006, 10:56:29 AM »
I assume hole 9 isn't Carnoustie as you said it was one hole per course - from memory no.9 at Carnoustie is pretty mundane. It was probably the 9th at Royal County Down.

Ian Andrew

Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2006, 11:05:52 AM »
Ed,

That one I know was Carnoustie - as a par five too.

ForkaB

Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2006, 11:12:50 AM »
The 9th was Muirfield.  I have a first edition of the book.

I'd be surprised if 1/2 of the holes listed would make any 2006 list.  Kinda interesting to try one's own hand, however.......

Mike Benham

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Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2006, 11:22:05 AM »
The 16th has got me thinking, how is it not CPC but then again Carnoostie is not exactly chopped liver.

I would still lean towards CPC as it has elements of challenge that aren't found just anywhere, where the challenge at Carnoostie is less unique.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

ForkaB

Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2006, 11:33:15 AM »
Mike

One of the rules was only one hole per course, and 17 CPC was chosen.  I'd flip 16 and 17 if I wer ein charge as Carnoustie's 17 is a great hole and CPC's is not.

Tom Huckaby

Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2006, 11:46:10 AM »
CPC's 17 is not a great hole?  Carnoustie's 17 is superior?

Interesting.... Carnoustie requires a layup off the tee, Cypress gives several options... Cypress has a very interesting green perched above the ocean, Carnoustie's is rather pedestrian set in some neat hummocks, but nothing that one can't see hundreds of other places on links...

Hey, I think 17 Carnoustie is a fine golf hole, as are 16 and 18 and several others there.

It's just very difficult to accept that the superior #17, or 16 for that matter, lies in Scotland.

But I'm sure you'll explain to me my fallacies.  I'm envisioning peons about "stupid trees"...

 ;D



Mike Benham

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Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2006, 11:53:46 AM »
Mike

One of the rules was only one hole per course, and 17 CPC was chosen.  I'd flip 16 and 17 if I wer ein charge as Carnoustie's 17 is a great hole and CPC's is not.

Yes, I realize that ... and I also would switch 16 for 17 at CPC.  Then I would put in 17 at TOC which means I need to find a replacement for the 14th ...

Although the 13th at Harbour Town is a solid choice, I might suggest the 13th at Kiawah Island as a replacement.
"... and I liked the guy ..."

JohnV

Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2006, 11:55:32 AM »
If it is one hole per course, how are #9 and #16 at Carnouste on the list?

ForkaB

Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2006, 11:58:28 AM »
John

#9 is Muirfield, not Carnoustie.  See my post above.

ForkaB

Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2006, 12:01:32 PM »
 I'm envisioning peons about "stupid trees"...

 ;D




Great tyop, Audible Yuckster

You obviously haven't played Carnoustie in anything but a gentle zephyr...... ;)

Stan Dodd

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Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2006, 12:06:39 PM »

Mike,
The new 14th Could be Foxy at Dornoch.

Tom Huckaby

Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2006, 12:11:42 PM »
That was a semi-intentional tyop.  I knew it was wrong, but thought it looked neat as it was, so didn't look up the correct spelling.

 ;D

And I've played Carnoustie in HUGE wind - 17 became a monster - a three-shotter with some darn interesting strategy as getting past the second part of the burn on the 2nd became quite the chore.

That doesn't make it a better golf hole than 17 Cypress, which is great no matter how the winds blow....


Jack_Marr

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Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2006, 12:14:04 PM »
I wonder if you could make a terrible course, drawing on holes from the world's best courses? I'm sure you could, if you had the energy.
John Marr(inan)

Mike Benham

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Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2006, 12:18:55 PM »
CPC's 17 is not a great hole?  Carnoustie's 17 is superior?

CPC's 17 is a very good golf hole but if you had to choose 1 hole from CPC to be on the list, would you choose 16 or 17?
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tom Huckaby

Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2006, 12:20:44 PM »
Mike - oh I'd choose 16 without a doubt.

I'm just commenting on Rich's assertion that 17 CPC is not a great golf hole, and that 17 Carnoustie is superior.  I disagree with both assertions.

Which of course is wholly tangential to the purpose of this thread, but hey, when have I ever stayed on point?

 ;D

Sean_A

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Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2006, 12:34:23 PM »
I gotta go with RCD's 9th over Muirfield's.  Additionally, Dornoch's Foxy has to top TOC's 14th.  Surely the 17th of TOC has to be the choice over all other contenders.  

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Andy Hughes

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Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2006, 01:45:23 PM »
Quote
Interesting.... Carnoustie requires a layup off the tee, Cypress gives several options
Tom, exactly how viable an option is hitting it right of the trees? I have never gotten a good sense of it--looking at pictures, it appears to be such a small landing area as to not be a true option. Beyond the option to hit right or left of the trees, what are the options?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Mike Benham

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Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2006, 01:55:08 PM »
Quote
Interesting.... Carnoustie requires a layup off the tee, Cypress gives several options
Tom, exactly how viable an option is hitting it right of the trees? I have never gotten a good sense of it--looking at pictures, it appears to be such a small landing area as to not be a true option. Beyond the option to hit right or left of the trees, what are the options?

Here is a few from the 17th tee ...

"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tom Huckaby

Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2006, 01:57:08 PM »
Andy:

The options off the tee are:

a) bomb it past the trees, allowing for clear shot;

b) stay far enough back from trees, allowing for trees to be cleared on 2nd;

c) go far left, allowing for clear second (tough to do as trees come in on the left side of fairway);

d) play for short off the tee, right of trees.  That area is pretty tough to hit, but can be done - I've done it myself - figure a 185 yard shot to a smallish "green" - it's risky but if one can pull it off, it's a short shot in, over ocean, no trees in the way.  What you might be thinking of as not a true option is to try and land the ball PAST the trees on the right - that's a long shot to a very tiny area indeed.  What I'm talking about the right side of the fairway a little short of the trees, maybe eeking up level with them - that can be done.  It's risky, but that's another thing that makes this hole great - the shortest shot off the tee is the riskiest choice!  Where else does that occur?

Of course wind will effect which choice to take, as will one's abilities.  But these are the four choices.

TH

ps - Mike - that's a great view looking back up 16... now give us one looking the other way.   ;D
« Last Edit: January 11, 2006, 01:58:26 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Sean Leary

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Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2006, 02:04:57 PM »
I never realized there was that much slope on 16 fairway.  It looks flattish from the teebox on the other pictures I have seen...

Tom Huckaby

Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2006, 02:22:06 PM »
Sean - that perspective distorts it a bit - for example, that look would tell one the tee is raised ABOVE the green - it's not - in fact the tee is a tiny bit below the green - making the carry that much longer than it looks (and it looks long to begin with).

The slope of the Isthmus of Moriarty is a little downhill toward the water, but not nearly as much as it looks in this pic.

TH

ps - yes I did write all of that just so I can use that wonderful term.   ;D


Ian Andrew

Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2006, 02:33:37 PM »
Mike,

The only time I played there, I layed-up to the left with seven iron. The wind was far to strong to get home. There is lots of rook if your not too greedy, and the pitch in is well received by the green. My Dad made three this way.


Andy Hughes

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Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2006, 02:35:22 PM »
Quote
The options off the tee are:
a) bomb it past the trees, allowing for clear shot;
b) stay far enough back from trees, allowing for trees to be cleared on 2nd;
c) go far left, allowing for clear second (tough to do as trees come in on the left side of fairway);
d) play for short off the tee, right of trees.  That area is pretty tough to hit, but can be done - I've done it myself - figure a 185 yard shot to a smallish "green" - it's risky but if one can pull it off, it's a short shot in, over ocean, no trees in the way....It's risky, but that's another thing that makes this hole great - the shortest shot off the tee is the riskiest choice!  Where else does that occur?
Not to become a nudge, but any rough guesstimates on how far to successfully do a), b) and c)?
Interesting on the shot short and right--can't think of anywhere else that happens as the riskiest choice.  
Do we hear the genesis of 'Isthmus of Moriarity'?  I assume its related to GCA's Moriarity and not Sherlock Holmes' nemesis?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Tom Huckaby

Re:The World Atlas of Golf Top 18 (1976)
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2006, 02:46:47 PM »
Andy - I think yardages would go like this:

a) 275 +
b) no more than 200
c) 230-275, but perfectly aimed, staying just short of trees on left - the fairway goes at an angle.

As for that wonderful term, it's creator ought to describe it best - it wasn't me.  But yes it refers to our GCA stalwart, who laid up there on a windy day and hasn't heard the end of it since.

 ;D


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