[John Kavanaugh]

What about that hat that guy wore...

[Paul Payne]

That day has already come my friend. There are many companies now that have strict limits on all gifts and entertainment including golf. I am not sure what the ultimate impact is on the golf industry but I would venture to guess two things;

1) an avid golfer is an avid golfer and will play no matter who is buying the round

2) As a player I could do without having to wait and play through the typical cart driving, beer drinking, loud mouthing, duck hooking, double foursome ahead.

I am sure golf as a business tool will remain sound at the most elite clubs, I don't think anything could change that.

[Brad Klein]

Wouldn't they be lucky . . .

[JESII]

I am willing to bet that at a club like Norwood Hills in St. Louis that if Monday outings were not allowed my dues would increase by at least 50%....and I would have to quit.

Same at Huntingdon Valley outside of Philadelphia. 50% might be on the high side, but the point is the same.

Many outings are charity based and therefore clear of this issue though.

[Jerry Kluger]

From what I've read, it seems that it is lavish trips to Scotland which are the issue and not an afternoon round or a charity fundraiser.

[Brad Klein]

John,

Am working on some related stuff about this right now. The short answer is that banquets, corporate outings, etc. are very important to club finances in ways that are readily identifiable, but in ways that less quantifiable to the customers and clients themselves.

My bet is that such outings are like advertising generally. You figure it has some positive effect, but the real reason for doing it is that you're afraid not to because someone else might pick up the slack.

[RJ_Daley]

John, John, John,  

No one gets too excited about Monday outtings put on by corporations, big wheels, fat cats, with some benefit going to charity and other benefit putting customers and clients together.

What you raised is Jack Abramhof and DeLay relationships, among other greasy tributes of lavish (LAVISH) golf travels (TRAVELS AS IN JUNKETS) to far off resorts and spas (AS IN RESORTS AND SPAS) to meet with special private interests (SPECIAL INTERESTS) or representatives of foreign governments (FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS) and the appearance of quid pro quo (QUID PRO QUO) arrangements for seeing legislation passed to help their goals.  Like getting certain immigration and labor laws schmotzed out, against the interests of THE UNITED STATES WORKERS for arrangements with Philipine worker immigration, or with RUSSIAN oil and gas interests.  It is very convenient and slightly elusive (wouldn't you say) to conduct these sort of meetings at KINGSBARNS, TOC and generally in FIFE, where the deals can be made extra-fronterial and offshore, shall we say.

If the congressmen and senators would spend Mondays meeting the people in their districts and states, on a town hall meeting basis rather than only those rich folk that can take off work (if they work) on Monday to golf, I think the country would be slightly better off.  I doubt that if every congressman or senator missed these monday golf outtings, that any of the clubs would suffer, or your dues would go up.  Aren't the wealthy and private business relationships enough to keep up attendance at those outtings?  Will you be asking for corporate welfare next, John.  

I found this article fairly insightful, perhaps your concern for Abramhof's use of golf junkets will be mitigated some...

http://www.slate.com/id/2116389/

[George Pazin]

If the congressmen and senators would spend Mondays meeting the people in their districts and states, on a town hall meeting basis rather than only those rich folk that can take off work (if they work) on Monday to golf, I think the country would be slightly better off.

Man, I love this idea. If nothing else, it'd get them out of Washington for a few days, so there'd be less time to screw things up.

[RJ_Daley]

You need to attend a Russ Feingold town hall meeting...

I'm going to your link now...

[RJ_Daley]

"You can tell a lot about a person's character by the way they play golf. If they cheat at golf, they'll cheat at anything," Tom DeLay once said. Hear that, GOP faithful? Take it from your leader: Next time you sell your soul to a lobbyist for an overseas golf trip, no mulligans!

How ironic is that!

The new mantra when investigating slease ball influence peddlers is, "follow the golf ball".

Was it Mary Queen of Scots that banned golf on Sundays.  Maybe there ought to be a ban on golf all in-session days of congress for that bunch of hackers.

[Jason Blasberg]

I've been told that outing profits at one Nassau County, Long Island, club roughly equals the dues paid by 1 full member ($20,000).  

Therefore, based upon a 200 member roster and about 20 outings a Season, outing revenue comprised about 10% of total revenue.

For me, it was never worth the inconvienence because the cost savings was never that great, plus it's so expensive to begin with, 10% doesn't register on the radar screen.

For other areas of the Country I'm sure things are different when operating expenses are much lower.  In comparison, at least in Nassau Cty, outings would not even cover a lot of club's real estate taxes in most years.

[ForkaB]

If you ban the right to pay for someone elses green fees you will take over one billion dollars from the golf industry...It could be the end of the game..At least for all those except the super rich..

Not in Scotland.....

What goes around, comes around.

[Brad Tufts]

Now I am not a political person at all, and do not follow all the trends virtually at all.  But why is golf another thing that has to be tied to polictical agenda?  All of these people have money, and golf is generally expensive.  When you have some extra money to spend on recreation, golf becomes an option.  Why is golf evil?  Luring politicians to overseas golf junkets is the same as giving them cars, lavish gifts, etc.....

Why does golf take the fall at all in this?  God forbid if these politicians all missed a vote to go to a Nationals game....then our national game would be evil?

There must have been a time in Crowley's life that he tried the game and couldn't get the ball off the ground......he is still bitter...  

[George Pazin]

Brad Tufts, jealousy and class warfare are time-tested and time-honored weapons for some people.

And anyone who thinks this is only happening with one party or even one lobbyist is even more naive than Pat Mucci thinks I am.

[RJ_Daley]

I can't believe that Duran is not already in here rolling around in this discussion in an apoplectic fit.

I think John K should be able to pay green fees for every private business purveyor of tar and stones in Illiana, and Cat and John Deere should pay for all of John's golf.  But, I say string'em up if he starts buying legislators goodies.  Banning goodies to congressmen and state legislators is not going to dent the Monday corporate outting crowd.  

[Jerry Kluger]

Let me tell you a story that demonstrates what a so-called vice golf can be no matter which party you are associated with.

In 1993 I was a member at TPC Avenel and a friend and I were going out to play a late afternoon round when we were told that we would be paired with two women. It turned out that they were HHS Secretary Donna Shalala and the chief lobbyist for Blue Cross.  This was during the time that Hillary was proposing her universal health care program and Blue Cross was doing everything they could to try and stop it.  Let me tell you that the round was incredibly long as Secretary Shalala was fed mulligan after mulligan by her host. We did not join them for drinks or food after the round nor did I watch to see what the Secretary picked up in the golf shop, but somehow, it seems to me that if golf was so evil it didn't bother them to be open about their round together.  

[RJ_Daley]

Turn that around JK.  I think you find that when power is taken away from the people, everyone in a democracy or representative government looses something.  I'm glad to see in your last that you think of yourself as 'us',  as in 'little people'.

The 'in power people'?  Who the hell are those people John?  What again was taken away from them?  Golf, free golf you say?  

[RJ_Daley]

Now there is a vision Jerry!  Sha la la boom dee yah, playing golf.    And just think, Tommy Thompson got the gig next at HHS.  My old organization once paid a fine for greasing Tommy during his first Gubber campaign.

[Jason Blasberg]

Thank you Jason...Why not just pay $40,000 a year and trim the fat out of the membership.   It is nice to have someone on a public forum inform the golfing world that $400,000 ain't worth the trouble when you can just assess the members a couple of K..

John:  the issue of outing revenue was raised in this thread, I gave the issue one regional perspective, if that bothers you I guess that's your problem.  

For what its worth, I left the club in question for the very attitude you imply about thinning the membership and having 40,000 dues b/c that's the path this particular club is on and as much as I love the course and have great friends there I got off that train for that reason.  

I still don't think it makes sense to pay 20k instead of 22k and give up 20 golfing days plus the damage to the course . . . . if you have trouble with that I guess that is, again, your problem.  

[RJ_Daley]

John, or Jerry I think is qualified to answer...

Don't you need a public official, someone in the legislative or regulatory official office to have a bribe?   Business men paying for business men may be a tax issue, but not a bribery issue.  Isn't there a difference between buying a round for a local public works director or committee person who decides on awarding bids, and buying a round for the owner of the local tar supplier, or Cat buying one for you?

[RJ_Daley]

Naw, I don't think so JK.  Koslowski style lavish entertainment on the shareholders dime in Sardenia yes, but buying a contractor/construction company owner a free stay at Kohler and a round at one of his courses is not malfeasance/defalcation; just promotional expenses.  And, not all entities buying promotional goodies are shareholder corps.  Some are privately owned.  You are still not accepting that the outrage is about public officials accepting such, and that is not a large enough group of the outting trade to effect private club operations.  

[RJ_Daley]

If your mechanic takes my fishing rod, assuming I sell chemicals, then buys my chemicals for $800, where he could have got them down the street for $500, that is your problem.  He is your mechanic.  I as a taxpayer don't see that as bribery.  It is just accepting a promotional offer to do business.  If you don't like it, you can fire him or borrow the rod when you go fishing.

[RJ_Daley]

That's OK John, the run based misdirection didn't work for Bobby last night, either...

[George Pazin]

Dick -

I'm certainly no lawyer, but I think it depends on if the mechanic is the owner of the business. If he is, then the fishing rod would be a promotion, but if someone else owns the garage and the mechanic overpays with someone else's money to get the "gift", then that strikes me as a kickback. I think JK's point was that, if you owned the garage and found out a mechanic was taking kickbacks that were costing you $$$, you'd simply give him the boot rather than get dragged into litigation.

And Bobby was lucky it was as close as it was, last night. It shoulda beena blowout.

[RJ_Daley]

George, I await a schooled attorney's take on that.  But, kickback in the traditional sense indicates to me that somewhere along the line, the public trust and resources were in play due to ability to spend taxpayer money.  I get the technical definition of "kickback"  you use in the mechanic thing.  But, it is an internal matter for the owner to manage.  Even shareholders have a say on removing loose management through voting their shares (what a joke in practical application).   But, it is on John, not the DA to seek recourse or prevent the largess of his mechanic's purchasing.  Also, if the mechanic takes the fishing rod, and then purchases the overpriced stuff, it is icky but not illegal.  Just JK's misfortune.  But, if he takes the rod, places the $800 order and gets $300 back in his pocket cash, well then I think that is defalcation.  But I could be wrong.

the poor mechanic, JK is probably rummaging through his locker right now looking for that rod.

I hope that Pollusky (sp)? is going to be OK with that knee.  What a thriller game!  I love Joe Pa...

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