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John Pflum

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Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« on: December 29, 2005, 01:47:37 PM »
I've lived in Cincinnati all my life and would love to get the chance to play this course.  It's a Seth Raynor track opened in 1925.  

Anyway, for those of you really good amateur golfers out there, Carmargo is going to be holding a US Amatuer Qualifier there on August 1, 2006.  That might be about the best chance to get on there.

http://www.gcga.org/gcga/tournaments/tournamentSchedules.asp
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Brad Klein

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2005, 01:56:18 PM »
Wonderful piece of land, very tough to get on, it's the first great classic course that influenced Pete Dye.
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Lawrence Largent

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2005, 02:50:32 PM »
I normally go every year to Camargo for the Am qualifier. You won't be disappointed you get 3 rounds for 100 dollars. Expect very firm and fast conditions like us open type if the weather permits. If i decide to go this year I'll let you know and maybe we can get together.

Lawrence
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John Pflum

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2005, 03:02:27 PM »
Quote from: Lawrence Largent on December 29, 2005, 02:50:32 PM
I normally go every year to Camargo for the Am qualifier. You won't be disappointed you get 3 rounds for 100 dollars. Expect very firm and fast conditions like us open type if the weather permits. If i decide to go this year I'll let you know and maybe we can get together.

Lawrence

Sounds good.  Let me know if you need a looper.  
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Tyler Kearns

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2005, 03:16:37 PM »
Lawrence,

How quickly do the spots at Camargo fill up? I've been thinking about travelling to Cincinnati for this very reason, and will try to make a little golf trip out of it.

TK
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JLahrman

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2005, 03:39:44 PM »
I believe the spots typically fill up quickly.  Cincinnati has 2 sites for qualifying but Camargo fills up fast as I'm sure you can imagine.  It's not uncommon for players from out of town to travel specifically to play the qualifier there.
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John Pflum

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2005, 03:56:26 PM »
Quote from: JAL on December 29, 2005, 03:39:44 PM
I believe the spots typically fill up quickly.  Cincinnati has 2 sites for qualifying but Camargo fills up fast as I'm sure you can imagine.  It's not uncommon for players from out of town to travel specifically to play the qualifier there.

The other qualifying site, Coldstream, is no slouch either.  Though I've heard that the conditions are not what they once were.  Who knows if that's true or not.  
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Jim Sweeney

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2005, 04:02:52 PM »
The Camargo qualifier used to be during the off week of the summer amateur "tour," in between the Western and the North and South. Thus, many players travelling from one to the other would play the qualifier there.

This led to many locals playing at the second site, Traditions GC in Northern Kentucky, because the collegians and foreigners playing the "tour" were dominating at Camargo. (Nick Flanagan, winner at Oakmont, qualfied out of Camargo.)

Last year the N&S dates were moved due to the US Open. Thus, there was no "tour break," and Camargo did not fill up for the qualifier.

No idea what will happen in '06. Best bet is to sign up early.
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JLahrman

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2005, 04:56:14 PM »
John,

When did the second qualifier switch to Coldstream?  I thought in recent years the second qualifier had been at the TPC at Rivers Bend.  I may be behind the times...the schedule does say Coldstream but I'd only heard of Coldstream being used for US Open qualifying.  I do remember when US Am qualifying was 18 at Camargo and 18 at Terrace Park.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2005, 04:59:44 PM by JAL »
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John Pflum

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2005, 05:06:35 PM »
Quote from: JAL on December 29, 2005, 04:56:14 PM
John,

When did the second qualifier switch to Coldstream?  I thought in recent years the second qualifier had been at the TPC at Rivers Bend.  I may be behind the times...the schedule does say Coldstream but I'd only heard of Coldstream being used for US Open qualifying.  I do remember when US Am qualifying was 18 at Camargo and 18 at Terrace Park.

JAL,

To be honest this is the first time I ever paid any attention to the US AM qualifier sites.  I'd have to really get my game in shape to apply so I never really noticed.  The only reason I saw it this time was b/c a friend of mine tries to qualify for the SR AM at Kenwood and I was checking the dates for him.  

I didn't know Coldstream did US Open qualifiers.  I thought that there was always only a single site at Maketewah.  

BTW -- I love Terrace Park.  I have a neighbor who is a member.  I clean her gutters and she takes me to play golf.  It's not all that expensive to join, either.  Though, with tuition for my daughter I won't be joining anytime soon.  
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JLahrman

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2005, 07:03:13 PM »
John,

I think that the US Open used to have local qualifying at Maketewah and sectional at Coldstream (maybe the other way around).  I don't know that Coldstream has ever had US Am qualifying unless it's started in the past year or two.

I like Terrace Park, despite some goofy greens there are quite a few good holes out there.  In particular I like #11-16.  A few years ago they were working on #3-6 but I haven't played there since they completed the work.

In any case, I would encourage all who can travel to apply early and try to qualify at Camargo, it's well worth the trip.
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Tom Jefferson

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2005, 07:54:19 PM »
John Pflum, Jr.;

With the style you showed at Bandon Dunes, and with the obvious dynamic swing that you show in your photo, why don't you tee it up in the Qualifier?

I believe in you, John!

And just to make your day..........the weather here in Bandon is heavy, dark, windy, wet!!!

(............yet the courses still are allowing a bit of ground game.)


Happy New Year to you,

Tom
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John Pflum

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2005, 08:30:40 PM »
JAL:  IIRC they changed 4-6 from a par 4,5,4 to a 3,4,5.  The biggest change was sticking a par 3 in at number 4.  I think the change was good and made 5 & 6 better holes.  I've always liked the approach to #6 -- the green sits right in front of the Little Miami river and is a very nice view.  

Tom: Aw, shucks.  (Kick a pebble).  Kind words but my handicap is no where near low enough to qualify.  For the past couple of years I feel like I've been _this close_ to making a major breakthrough.  The truth is I don't play often enough.  I probably get in 25 rounds a year and the vast majorit of those are in 36 holes a day for three days type outings.  I really want to join a golf league this season but I'm having a hard time finding one here in town.  
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RE Blanks

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2005, 09:37:07 AM »
Camargo - my favorite course.  Played at Yeamans Hall, Fishers Island, Lookout Mt but this in my opionon is the best.  Not sure what it would be like as a qualifier, but when I played we had the place to ourselves.  A really fantanstic place.  The Alps hole is outstanding.  After the round we went to Skyline.  I had a three way and a coke.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2005, 09:37:45 AM by RE Blanks »
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John Pflum

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2005, 10:06:57 AM »
Quote from: RE Blanks on December 30, 2005, 09:37:07 AM
Camargo - my favorite course.  Played at Yeamans Hall, Fishers Island, Lookout Mt but this in my opionon is the best.  Not sure what it would be like as a qualifier, but when I played we had the place to ourselves.  A really fantanstic place.  The Alps hole is outstanding.  After the round we went to Skyline.  I had a three way and a coke.

Ah -- sounds like a perfect Cincinnati experience.  Did you go to Graeter's afterwards?  

Any chance you can get a begging Cincinnati guy a round there?   :-\
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RE Blanks

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2005, 10:32:24 AM »
I was in Cincinnati for 2 days - played Coldstream and Camargo - ate a at 2 Skylines and 1 Goldstar.  After playing both I find it hard to believe there is actually a debate as to the best course in the city.  
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Brad Klein

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2005, 11:27:09 AM »
Coldtream. Goodness, is there a more boring Dick Wilson course? I was stunned at how underwhelming it was when I walked it a few years ago. Kept waiting for something to happen and nothing did except a lot of trees, poor sight lines, and bland bunkering.
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RE Blanks

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2005, 12:00:40 PM »
Brad, I agree 100%.  I am having a tough time recalling any of the holes.   Coldstream is  penal and boring.  We did however play with a great member who had a career round and ordered 12 Budweisers on the 7th tee.  The conditioning was good but it does not belong in the same discussion as Camargo.
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PThomas

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2005, 12:03:28 PM »
RE  - so how did the round finish out after 12 Buds on the SEVENTH tee?????
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Ryan Wharton

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2005, 05:58:34 PM »
I'll be playing at Camargo this year for the AM qualifier, barring I get time off work to do so. I drove by it the other day just for the hell of it. Couldn't see much because of the snow, yet I'm excited to play it for the first time after reading great reviews about it (and seeing the Raynor/Macdonald style at the Walker Cup). I did play Coldstream in the City amateur a few years back and was impressed. It was an extremely difficult course and I know it can play even a lot longer than we played it. Those were quite possibly the fastest greens I've ever played.
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Evan_Green

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2005, 08:10:07 PM »
I travelled from San Francisco to Cincinnati to play in the qualifier last year. The course is a treasure - Raynor at his best on a superb piece of land.

One of the best collections of par 3's I have ever played.

The super really sets the course up tough for the Qualifier. Case in point is the pin position on the Redan which was back in the practice round (relatively easy) and right up front for the main event (REALLY tough- plus I saw them out with the rolling machine that morning). The greens are huge and for the qualifier they tuck many of the pins in the corners right next to precipitous drop offs making for dangerous approach shots and if you dont go for the pin, making for very long putts.

Overall the qualifier is a wonderful experience. Would highly recommend.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2005, 12:52:35 AM by Evan_Green »
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RE Blanks

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2005, 10:48:08 PM »
Paul, I think the beers helped.  After the round the member was very excited about shooting a good round and feeling charitable after 5 or 6 beers, and refused to let us pay him for the greens fees.  We tried a few more times but he insisted.  After that we ate some chili at Skyline.  Then went to the Hamiltion Elks Club (ROss).  and had a few more beers.  
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Adam_Messix

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2005, 09:10:27 AM »
Camargo is an outstanding course, a great example of the Raynor style.  The first thing that surprised me was just how big a ballpark it is.  The course is spread over quite a large piece of property.  Playing in a qualifier such as the one for the US Am, you have to nail the two par fives because they aren't that difficult because the par fours are quite tough, particularly 4, 10, 12, and 14.  

The group is correct that they try to keep Camargo very firm and fast tee to green and despite the fact the property has a fair amount of movement to it, is an easy walk.  

I have one question for the group.  I think originally, the 9th and 10th fairways came very close together to the left of the current 10th fairway with some players hitting their drives into the 9th fairway for a better angle.  I think this posed a safety issue and the 10th tee and fairway were slid to the right creating the swinging dog-leg that's there today.  I think Raynor had the 10th and 18th fairways at Yeamans Hall very close to each other as well.  My question is whether placing two fairways very close to one another is something that Raynor did often and if so, are there any left?  Thanks in advance.
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Jim Sweeney

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2005, 11:53:26 AM »
Adam:

I had never heard that before but if anyone knows it would be Tom Doak, or the guy I consider Mr. Cnmargo, foremr head professional Dick Plummer. If I can find out I'll let you know.

For those who are interestd, the second Am qualifier site has been Traditions in NKY for a few years and it is my understanding it will continue to be there. Coldstream has been the Mid Am site recently. Maketewah has been the Open local site for 30 years, and there is no change coming there (BTW, they do the best job on an Open local I've ever seen. It has been the largest site in entries in the country for the past two years.) The Open sectional is usually in Columbus right after the Memorial. In the odd year if the Memorial is early the sectional will come to Cinci and is usually at Coldsteram, though it has been at Clovernook.

Brad: Coldstream is undergoing complete bunker restoration under the eye of Van Hagge, who designed the bunkers originally. I haven't seen them yet (I think the work is to be completed this year.) Let me know if your ever headed this way.

 
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"Hope and fear, hope and Fear, that's what people see when they play golf. Not me. I only see happiness."

" Two things I beleive in: good shoes and a good car. Alligator shoes and a Cadillac."

Moe Norman

Brad Klein

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Re:Camargo CC Cincinnati, Ohio
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2005, 11:59:51 AM »
Jim,

if I'm ever headed that way it'll be to play Hyde Park (Liddy restored Ross there) and Camargo, but I'm willing to do a drive through of Camargo. Interesting, that Camargo suffered for years from von Hagge's renovated bunkers until Doak redid them. Now vH is working on Coldstream. I think that says a lot.
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