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Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Reverse Tiers?
« on: December 27, 2005, 04:10:59 PM »
Just curious if there are any. Like some greens have tiers that face the golfer and allow to use the slope to spin the ball backwards. Are there any that go away from the golfer. For those of you that have played Rustic Canyon, it would be the oppisite of number 15. I can not think of any off the top of my head. What does this do to the hole? harder/ eaiser?
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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2005, 04:14:15 PM »
Brian:

Perry Maxwell liked to do a reverse-tiered green:  Crystal Downs #13, Old Town Club #6.  The sixteenth green at Desert Highlands was 3 tiers going away from you, or at least it used to be ... I haven't seen the course since they rebuilt the greens.
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Michael Moore

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Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2005, 04:20:03 PM »
The first hole at the ultra-sporty Inn at Poland Springs in Poland, Maine (Donald Ross) is a fairly wide open hole that goes 350 yards gently but steadily downhill to a small reverse-tiered green that is also tilted front to back.

I have never ever made or seen a four on this hole in twenty-five trips.
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Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2005, 04:24:00 PM »
I would think it would add difficulty to the hole. but that they would be disliked by many golfers. as most do not care for the green falling away from them. So they are out there I just have not seen them or just do not remember them.
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ForkaB

Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2005, 04:26:03 PM »
The 4th at Spyglass.  Also a "tongue" green per the other thread.  Vis a vis the last question, I think that any green sloping front to back is inherently harder than one sloping back to front, for the obvious reason of gravity--helps you in the latter case, hurts you in the former one.
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Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2005, 04:34:02 PM »
Cupp designed a nice "step-down" green at Legend Club's 11th hole.  The short approach is typically from a downhill lie, making it extremely difficult to stop a ball on the front-top level which is also protected by a relatively steep bank in front mowed at fairway height.  The back pin is definitely the easier of the two, though there is a steep drop-off into the woods beyond the green.  

Excellent use of this feature at the short (even I can reach it in two) par five 7th as well where the green is pushed up so that anything short stays short or rolls back down into the fairway.  Very difficult to stop a long-iron / fairway metal on the front-top level.  Long is no good either if one gets too aggressive trying to reach a back pin.  

Mike
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 04:34:37 PM by Bogey_Hendren »
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JWL

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2005, 04:51:49 PM »
Pinehurst National has several.....the 6th, the 8th, 14th and the 9th could all be classified in that manner.
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Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2005, 05:18:05 PM »
Here are some photos of a reverse tier green by William Langford in 1930. The hole is 510 yard par 5 with an elevated green that tumbles through the kettle moraine. If you go for the green in two you could end up next to the green without a view of the pin.  The green is structured so a ball rolling from front to back will roll straight only if going thru a small area in the the middle. Anything that gets going left or right will catch an increasingly steep bank and roll sideways. The hole is fun to play especially with a back pin as it you have to make a difficult decision with your second. If you lay up you have another decision on how to play the the third.


Looks innocent enough from here...




looking back




Is it steep?




A good place to miss your second ... (more likely her 5th or 8th) But if the pin was front right and up and down would be tough.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 05:20:09 PM by Mike McGuire »
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Pat Howard

Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2005, 08:33:38 PM »
That's what I love about this site. One member thinks of something he hasn't/rarely seen, and another member has beautiful pics of an example! Thanks to Brian for starting the post. It truely is a rare design feature that I think could be used more frequently if done right, say on a short par 4 or reachable par 5. Also, thanks to Mike for the great pics! Keep it up guys.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 08:34:04 PM by Pat Howard »
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paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2005, 08:40:00 PM »
Love Barefoot #6 has a triple tier fall away with a fronting retaining wall....I've also built another triple tier fall away at Orchard Creek in upstate NY.
I've built a reverse biarritz on #1 at Crystal Peak in Reno, but I guess that only qualifies as a double tier fall away.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 08:48:43 PM by paul cowley »
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2005, 08:45:36 PM »
The 14th green at Bandon Trails qualifies.

Tom

ps.........high winds (70 mph on the headlands) and flood level rain on the way in Bandon.   HOOOOLLLLD ON!
 
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the pres

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2005, 08:54:07 PM »
The spine running across #12 at Rustic Canyon and the downslope behind it can make pitch shots to a back pin impossible.  I'd be interested to know how the regulars play that shot, with the pin behind the ridge on the back slope.
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Joe Hancock

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Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2005, 09:01:17 PM »
Mike,

Is that #3 at WBCC? I remember walking over that severe contour on the right side of the green. I may be wrong in my memory of what hole it is, but I am absolutely positive about which nine it is on! ;D

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2005, 09:19:51 PM »
Quote from: Joe Hancock on December 27, 2005, 09:01:17 PM
Mike,

Is that #3 at WBCC? I remember walking over that severe contour on the right side of the green. I may be wrong in my memory of what hole it is, but I am absolutely positive about which nine it is on! ;D

Joe

Good memory Joe. It is the third at West Bend CC.

I'm a little bummed no one raved about the beautiful huge blue spruce's. You know..the ones that turn a fun recovery shot into a belly crawl. How about all that nice bluegrass on top of the pad.

The other par 5 on that nine #6 also had a reverse tier green. Langford must have liked that feature. A committee in the early 50's flattened it out. Byron Nelson played the nine twice in an exibition around 1948 or so. I heard he landed his pitch on the downslope of the tier and it kicked over the green. I wonder if his negative comments sealed the greens fate. Perhaps an early example of a touring pros "wisdom" affecting architecture.

I'm glad he didn't land it on the slope of this hole. It is one of the most interesting greens I've played.

When you are on the 2nd tee you can see where the pin is. You always look because the pin dictates the strategy all the way back to the tee shot.
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Brian Noser

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Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2005, 09:53:48 PM »
Bill,  I am not sure if I am reading it correct the back pin on the little plaeteu on the green? If so this is a very difficult shot. When I played there often I hit it a little out to the right to offer the best angle andthen  for me I would hit the low shot like you see the pros hit. where it would hit either short of the tier or in the middle take one big hop and check up. some of the now regulars would always try to fly it back there and end up well....in jail. fun hole I can not wait to get back there.
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Bill_McBride

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Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2005, 10:16:34 PM »
Brian, I have played several rounds at Rustic the past few years, and seem to remember #12 as having a spine or ridge that ran at 90 degrees to the direct line (line of charm?) to the hole from the tee.  From that line, the back half of the green is on a down slope, no?  From the far right side of the fairway, the spine is more angled at you, so a slight miss hit can go left when you want to go right or vice versa.  The ridge winds up sloping toward the right side of the green so the pin positions can be in really small effective areas.

Great defense of par on a very short par 4.
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Chris Parker

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Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2005, 10:23:27 PM »
Hi Brian,

Since your topic sounded familiar, I did a quick search and found that there was a similar thread two years ago.  I couldn't find a link to the whole thread, but here is a quote from Ian Andrew about Kawartha G&CC, a course near me in Peterborough, ON.

Quote from: ian on April 09, 2003, 06:07:43 PM
The is one of the best I have ever played it's at Kawartha Golf & Country Club (Stanley Thompson) in Peterborough. The front quarter of the green is flat with the fairway running downhill into the green. A two foot roll on the right side will hold a "bounced in" approach, but anything left runs through and down below. The ledge is about two feet and the lower green is essentially a bowl that drains left behind the bunker. I hope this shows up in the photo. Of note, Stan's bunkers were ruined although fortunately the rear bunker mounding still remains intact.

There was an accompanying photo, but it's no longer valid.

Also from Ian in 2003, about the same hole:

Quote from: ian on December 18, 2003, 10:27:42 PM

2. 2nd at Kawartha (Thompson)

Features a fairway running downward (and to the left) into a two tiered green. The higher tier is in the front and the lower tier is in the back (3 feet lower). The green also banks fairly strongly left with wonderful flash ups from which you can steer the ball in. The prudent shot is a run in for almost all approaches.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 10:30:45 PM by Chris Parker »
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"Undulation is the soul of golf." - H.N. Wethered

Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2005, 10:26:29 PM »
bill there is a good pic of the 12th in the courses by country. i would post the pic if i knew how. I do not recall everseeing a pin over the ridge I remember the green ending and it becoming fringe. I could be wrong it has been a year since I played there. but i have seen 3 pin positions. if you are looking at the pic. one is left side in the little hollow tough to get at from a bad angle. 2 where the pin looks to be in the pick on top of the the little plaeteu. and 3 on the front in front of the big ridge.

I see what you are saying though.The pic show it great.
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Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2005, 10:26:37 PM »
Bill,

I made a terrific bogey on #12 at Rustic after driving the green..... :P

Pin was left center, if I remember correctly.

Joe
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2005, 10:30:09 PM »
Chris you read all the way back to 2003? You are commited! ;D thanks though. I was just thinking about this the other day how it would be cool to see since it is not done often. Turns out its done more then I thought.
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Chris Parker

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Link to original reverse tiers thread
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2005, 10:49:49 PM »
Brian, I just found a link to the original reverse tiers thread:
reverse tiers
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"Undulation is the soul of golf." - H.N. Wethered

Brian Noser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2005, 11:08:50 PM »


see if I can do this!
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2005, 11:46:57 PM »
Quote from: Rich Goodale on December 27, 2005, 04:26:03 PM
The 4th at Spyglass.

Here's the fallaway back tier of #4 at The Glass:



Quote from: JWL on December 27, 2005, 04:51:49 PM
Pinehurst National has several.....the 6th, the 8th, 14th and the 9th could all be classified in that manner.

The 6th is the one that popped in my head, and has the
biggest falloff to the back on the course.  Jim, did you work
on The Course Formerly Known as PN?:

The pin is in the lower back tier in this pic:


Some others:

#15 at Inniscrone (one of the all-time great fallaway greens, IMO)

#10 at Tot Hill Farm, seen in the upper part of this shot of the 12th green:


Doak mentioned a few, but not his own 3rd at Riverfront:



#8 at Nicklaus' Hokuli'a on the Big Island (still not sure that it's pinnable back there):

« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 03:56:03 PM by Scott_Burroughs »
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JWL

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Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2005, 12:58:16 AM »
Scott

Yes, I worked at PN.

I think the picture you showed is the 6th hole at PN, unless they have changed the mowing lines to something I don't recognize.
It has a drop off as does the 8th.
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Mike McGuire

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Re:Reverse Tiers?
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2005, 10:50:59 AM »
In an earlier thread re: revese tiers Dick Daley mentioned the 6th at Lawsonia. A Langford par five. Unfortunately this is the best photo i have. You can barely make out the back left lower tier.

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