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David_Tepper

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Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2005, 03:25:08 PM »
Re: booking times at TOC, be sure to read this:

www.popeofslope.com/scotland/AScalpingAtStAndrews.html

Matt MacIver

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Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #26 on: December 21, 2005, 03:25:31 PM »
It gets worse...did I mention that we'll be bringing our then 6 and 4 year old kids?  Guess who gets to watch them while dad is golfing?  As I type this I cringe at what I'm about to undertake, all in the name of authentic links golf....

Tom Huckaby

Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2005, 03:33:47 PM »
Matt:

All I can say is "oh my."

And that I shall indeed pray.

But also that I COMPLETELY understand.

 ;D


Glenn Spencer

Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2005, 04:16:28 PM »
My faves are Prestwick, Muirfield, St. Andrews, Cruden bay, North Berwick...I know that some like Ladybank and Gullane No 1. as well.  Have a great trip and keep us updated.


It has been some time since I have been there, but I would agree with all of these, Ladybank is wonderful and Gullane No.1 is one of the most fair and difficult courses I ever remember playing. This is my first post and I would just like to say that I am big fans of all of you and your insights.

mike_beene

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Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2005, 05:24:06 PM »
My two cents worth:I like 36 a day.The place I enjoy a half day off is St Andrews,which is fun to walk around in and watch people finish on the Old Course.Make sure your group gets in shape if they are not already.I am not always a fan of caddies and generally carry my own bag.Agree the driver is worth it.FBD prefers we not run him off the road.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #30 on: December 21, 2005, 05:59:05 PM »
Wellcome Glenn and thanks for your comments.

I have aspecific question.  I knkow I'm not supposed to think about this until the 25th but...My Christmas present for my wife is to take her away to a spa hotel of my choice for a weekend,  just the two of us.  Her present to me is to pay for the golf (sorry but massages do nothing for me).

So spring next year it's my first trip to St Andrews!  I plant to get up early and just take my chance and be asked to join a two or three ball. Aim to play TOC and New friday, TOC Sat am, and then talk to the missus a bit Sat on the way to the plane home.

Only question is will she prefer St Andrews Bay or the Old Course Hotel better? (Cost could be an issue) anyone with reccomendations about this?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Eric Franzen

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Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2005, 06:04:29 PM »
Only question is will she prefer St Andrews Bay or the Old Course Hotel better? (Cost could be an issue) anyone with reccomendations about this?

The Old Course Hotel can sort out a tee time for you on TOC, I'll belive. So I think she might prefer that compared to being woken up at dawn when you are trying to sneak out to the parking lot at the St Andrews Bay Hotel.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2005, 06:05:22 PM by Eric Franzen »

Dan King

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Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2005, 07:02:08 PM »
I know Tom Huckaby will disagree, as will many others: But if someone where to ask me for advice for Scotland I would say travel either alone or with one other friend. Do not go with a group of four or eight or 16. To understand why Scotland is such a superior golfing country than U.S. you need to meet Scottish golfers. You need to go and get on courses as a single, play with locals, hang out with them in pubs.

You also need to get off the beaten track. Don’t follow the tourists. Avoid the Open courses, play local competitions, drink Belhaven’s Best, enjoy the haggis in the morning when you are hung over.  Try the blood pudding (not my cup of tea, but at least I tried it.)

I don’t go with anything more than a car rental. There are countless B&Bs to stay at. There is always golf to be played. Yes, you won’t get to see a chance to play Muirfield, but trips can be complete without that. You will probably get out on TOC as a single and you will see why the Scotts understand the spirit of the game so much better than we do here in the states. You can go visit the graves of the Morris’, just as important when seeing Scotland as playing Muirfield.

Dan King
Quote
The winds were blowing 50 mph and gusting to 70. I hit a par-3 with my hat.
 --Chi Chi Rodriguez (on the winds in Scotland)

Tom Huckaby

Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2005, 07:34:37 PM »
Dan:  you and I have discussed this many times.  So yes, I will disagree to some extent.  In a perfect world, one gets to do both:  a trip like you say, alone or with one other friend, or a trip like Jim is going to do, with a group of friends.  

The interesting thing here is I think I'm one of very few who has done both.

And both are indeed fun.  Dan's right - going with one other friend, you'll get a much greater sense of the Scottish people, life, etc.  You'll meet more Scottish people out of necessity.  And in the end that will be a good thing.

But what I think Dan tends to miss is that if one goes with a group, that doesn't necessarily PRECLUDE the same sort of experience - it just makes it a little tougher to do, given you have your own friends with you and thus the inclination might not be to branch out; not to mention the fact that most Scots will see a group of tourists and run the other way.

However, if you are so inclined, you can have this sort of Scottish experience even with a group.  It just takes a little effort.  I know, I achieved it with a group of 12 last time I went.  We met LOTS of Scots, played golf with and against them, drank Belhaven's Best buying lots of it for them (and having it bought for us), stayed at B&B's for the most part and loved all of it.  And we achieved this because I drummed into the other guys the proper attitude.

So I am here to say it can be done - this need not be mutually exclusive, as Dan seems to say.

As for the golf courses, I'm gonna heartily disagree with Dan there, and I've made my point already.  Sure it's great to get off the beaten track, but it's the road to regret if you don't play the Open courses that fuel your dreams.  Only if you are VERY adventurous and/or have an entire summer to spend over there (like Dan did) would I advise playing hidden gems at the expense of the Open greats.  Once those have been played and experienced, THEN branch out.  As for TOC, having played with locals and with friends, well... sharing it with great friends should not be downgraded.  Special places deserve to be shared.  Both ways are great though.  But man, especially if one only has a short amount of time, to me it's tough to just depend on the lottery there and hope for the best.  TOC is a life experience that shouldn't be left to chance - I don't think so anyway - the room for regret there is just too huge.

In the end, as Rich says, there remains no wrong way to do this.

In any case for the folks asking here, the question seems to be moot - each is going with a large group.  No way would I advise them to eschew such - it is great fun. I don't think Dan would either - seems that decision has been made.

And if you have a large group, even Dan would have to agree a bus and driver is the way to go.  Driving over there is difficult, and until one has experienced how cool that rolling cocktail party can be with great friends, one ought not to knock it.

TH
« Last Edit: December 21, 2005, 07:37:12 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2005, 07:35:36 PM »
That would be the great Oddball in Kelly's Heroes. And I do have a hat like his somewhere in my collection.

Dan King
Quote
We see our role as essentially defensive in nature. While our armies are advancing so fast and everyone's knocking themselves out to be heroes, we are holding ourselves in reserve in case the Krauts mount a counteroffensive which threatens Paris... or maybe even New York. Then we can move in and stop them. But for 1.6 million dollars, we could become heroes for three days.
 --Oddball (Kelly's Heroes)

ForkaB

Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2005, 07:35:40 PM »
Wellcome Glenn and thanks for your comments.

I have aspecific question.  I knkow I'm not supposed to think about this until the 25th but...My Christmas present for my wife is to take her away to a spa hotel of my choice for a weekend,  just the two of us.  Her present to me is to pay for the golf (sorry but massages do nothing for me).

So spring next year it's my first trip to St Andrews!  I plant to get up early and just take my chance and be asked to join a two or three ball. Aim to play TOC and New friday, TOC Sat am, and then talk to the missus a bit Sat on the way to the plane home.

Only question is will she prefer St Andrews Bay or the Old Course Hotel better? (Cost could be an issue) anyone with reccomendations about this?

Tony

Old Course Hotel--hands down, no question, case closed.

PS--I checked with my wife on this just to make sure......

Mike Benham

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Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2005, 07:45:41 PM »
That would be the great Oddball in Kelly's Heroes. And I do have a hat like his somewhere in my collection.

Dan King


As a sidebar, and after reviewing IMDB, Mr. Sutherland has had quite a career ... and the stretch in the late '60s starting with The Dirty Dozen, M*A*S*H and ending with Kelly's Heroes wasn't a bad trio of patriotic wartime movies ...;)
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Dan King

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2005, 07:49:26 PM »
Tom Huckaby writes:
The interesting thing here is I think I'm one of very few who has done both.

I’ve done both. More than once on the same trip. A couple times I went over with friends and after they left I stuck around. I’m saying I enjoyed the time after my friends much more than while they were there. While they were there it felt too much like moving our American golf game to a different local. After they left, it felt much more Scottish.

As for the golf courses, I'm gonna heartily disagree with Dan there, and I've made my point already.

I think it comes down to the motivation. Are you going to Scotland to collect bag tags and tell your friends when you get back or are you going to experience Scotland? The Open rota, more often than not you are going to get paired with much the same people you would get paired with at Pebble Beach. You go out to Crail you have a good chance of playing with locals and while the course might not be as great, I think the experience can be better. And you’ll save a few quid!

In any case for the folks asking here, the question seems to be moot - each is going with a large group.  No way would I advise them to eschew such - it is great fun. I don't think Dan would either - seems that decision has been made.

I wasn’t going to respond to this post because it seemed these already made decisions. But if others are thinking of their first trip to Scotland, there are many ways to skin a cat. The Open rota in Scotland with three buddies is only one of the numerous ways to see Scotland.

And if you have a large group, even Dan would have to agree a bus and driver is the way to go.  Driving over there is difficult, and until one has experienced how cool that rolling cocktail party can be with great friends, one ought not to knock it.

I love driving in Scotland, but then I’ve never done the hired driver tour. Of course, I also like to head over the Machrie should the mood strike.

Dan King
Quote
My experience of playing many of the classic links has been an enormous pleasure to me. The thrill of squeezing a ball against the turf, trying to keep it low into a buffeting wind, is something that lingers in the mind forever.
 --Peter Thomson (Foreward to Classic Golf Links of England,  Scotland, Wales and Ireland)

Doug Siebert

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Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #38 on: December 22, 2005, 03:36:24 AM »

Day 5:  Travel to St. Andrews.  Play Kingsbarns.  Overnight Rusacks Hotel (2006) or The Dunvegan Hotel (2007).
Note--the rooms at Rusacks would look out on the 17th green (the Road Hole!)


The Rusacks doesn't overlook 17.  You can see it from there, but you have a much better look at the 18th green than the 17th.  The Rusacks is about level with Granny Clark's Wynd.

Not selling it short, I spend 5 days there in 2001 and it was a blast.  Waking up in the morning and looking out your window half asleep and seeing golfers teeing off the 1st at TOC in the early morning fog is an experience not be missed.  Being fully awake and eating breakfast in front of large picture windows offering the same view is even better!

As for what courses to play, man when you say it could be your only visit there I can't even try to suggest places to play.  You've got to do TOC, that much is for sure, other than that I wouldn't get too attached to any one course.  While there is definitely incentive to try and play as many big name and Open rota courses as possible, PLEASE take the opportunity to play at least one no name course so you can play with the locals and see what golf in Scotland really is about.

When you only play TOC, Carnoustie, Turnberry, Troon, etc. and especially when you play with a group you travelled with I think you really miss out on a great part of the experience.  I know it sounds silly and your friends might think so too but I'd really recommend taking some day or half day to play by yourself on some no name course where you'd just join up with locals.  If you play with 2 or 4 of your friends split up so everyone plays with at least two locals.  Just make sure you are ready to play fast because those Scots don't fuck around....a four hour round for a 4 ball is terribly slow to them!  You won't realize that playing the big names but the reason it takes longer playing those courses is because they are full of tourists!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Paul_Turner

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Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #39 on: December 22, 2005, 08:18:23 AM »
Jim

I'd recommend just hiring a car too.  The tourist information offices are very helpful with B&B bookings, it's very simple and will save you money.  But if you have got spare cash....

Make sure you hook up with some locals after the rounds and don't bother with a caddie, hire a trolley instead.

Also don't drink and drive in the UK at all, the laws are very tough (much more so than the US).
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 08:19:54 AM by Paul_Turner »
can't get to heaven with a three chord song

Tom Huckaby

Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2005, 09:39:03 AM »
Dan:

We're not all that far off on this really.  Sure going by yourself or with one other can be great - if one is gregarious.  Just don't knock the trip with a large group too much - that can be great also.  And yes, it is all in one's motivations.  If one is gregarious, feels comfortable reaching out and wants to meet new people, then the Scots will show him a good time.  It just seems to me to be very difficult to knock experiencing links golf with a large group of good friends.

Because as you know I have done both also, and to me both were equally great - just in different ways.  Yes with the large group we likely didn't "get" Scotland as easily as I was able to the other way, but we did DEFINITELY get links golf, and had a freakin' blast doing so.

Sounds to me like you went with the wrong large group.   ;)

In any case I think Doug strikes the right compromise - if one can break away from the main group for a round or two, a day or two, where he gets paired with local Scots, then that sounds pretty good.  It's just pretty tough to abandone one's friends.  But if it can be done, that's a great idea.  The experience of playing with locals is very cool.

I just would never want anyone to think they're trip was going to be less than great if they do the large group thing, that's all!  It surely can be fantastic.  It's all about the links golf and the friends, then.  Hard to knock that.

Re driving in Scotland, oh man I too THOUGHT I enjoyed it... until I had someone else do it for me and moved the bar along with us, so to speak.  That issue is not even close.  But of course that too only works with a large group.

And I too would love to go to Machrie - it's just exceedingly difficult to work into a 7 day trip in which you are trying to see other courses.  One would have to also be VERY adventurous to make this a priority in a once in a lifetime trip... unless he has a LOT of time, that is.

TH
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 09:40:50 AM by Tom Huckaby »

Bill_McBride

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Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2005, 11:08:47 AM »
I agree with the stay in North Berwick advice.  It is a very charming little seaside town.  The Chinese on the High St is very good and the Italian restaurant is good as well.  A sunset walk down into the harbor and out on the quay is a must.  As is a double round on the West Links if at all possible!  8)  

The best pub in town is the second floor room in the West Links clubhouse.  You can down a few pints whilst watching the travails on the 18th hole!

I guess all this proves is that there is such a wealth of golfing plentitude in Scotland you can't go wrong.

Just wondering, but why on earth would anyone order a BUD in the Dunvegan when both Bellhaven's Best and Tennants are on tap?   ::)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2005, 11:09:52 AM by Bill_McBride »

Doug Siebert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2005, 02:03:34 AM »
I agree with Tom about the hiring a car thing, having cold beer makes trips that can take a while on narrow windy roads in the rain seem much shorter.

However, I don't think there's anything wrong with driving there, I've done that and didn't have any problems with it.  I don't see how people have a problem with driving on the left, seeing as how sitting on the right when you are driving is a pretty good hint things are different than back home!

I would advise getting an automatic transmission vehicle though.  Even if you drive a manual all the time, shifting with your left hand is just one more thing you aren't used to on top of the driving on the left, dealing with stuff you don't see in most parts of the US like roundabouts, and trying to read the road signs to figure out if you are going the right way.  But make sure you are ready for going through lots of narrow areas.  It is not uncommon to drive through towns with cars parked on both sides of the road (up onto the sidewalk) leaving just enough room in places that you've only got inches on either side of your mirrors, or going through alleys that narrow to get to the parking areas behind your B&B, etc.  Make sure your credit card covers LDW over there, and if not you should probably pony up for it when you rent the car.  If you get a new car that don't already have lots of scrapes on the backside of both mirrors it WILL have them when you return it ;)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Robert Thompson

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Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #43 on: December 23, 2005, 08:25:10 AM »
Only question is will she prefer St Andrews Bay or the Old Course Hotel better? (Cost could be an issue) anyone with reccomendations about this?

The Old Course Hotel can sort out a tee time for you on TOC, I'll belive. So I think she might prefer that compared to being woken up at dawn when you are trying to sneak out to the parking lot at the St Andrews Bay Hotel.

Actually the Old Course hotel has no access to tee times, but if you are planning this far out, there shouldn't be an issue. Driving in Scotland is not an issue, and I've done it several times. Drivers are costly and overrated, IMHO. Lastly, I'd make the half hour drive and play Carnoustie ahead of the New Course, but you'll need a second St. Andrews course if you gain access to the Old Course.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Andy Scanlon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #44 on: December 23, 2005, 10:08:31 AM »
I have a trip to Scotland planned for October 2006, which I began planning in September of 2005.  We will be playing Dornoch, TOC, Jubilee, Muirfield (36 holes), Carnousite, Turnberry and Troon.  I was initially going to go through a broker, but decided to make all of the arrangements myself using the websites of the courses we have booked and I had a blast doing it myself.  

I am going with my Dad and this will likely be a one shot trip for him, so I wanted to hit as many current Open courses in the contry as possible.  (I plan to return at a later time and hit some of the lesser-known gems  ;D ;D).

Perhaps it is the time of year we are going to be there, but I found very little trouble getting the flights, courses and accomodations I wanted.
All architects will be a lot more comfortable when the powers that be in golf finally solve the ball problem. If the distance to be gotten with the ball continues to increase, it will be necessary to go to 7,500 and even 8000 yard courses.  
- William Flynn, golf architect, 1927

ForkaB

Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #45 on: December 23, 2005, 10:39:00 AM »
Andy

Is there a question? :)

Only suggestion I would make is substitute the Eden for the Jubilee.  And, when you get to the 10th of the Eden, just jump over to the 17th, play back towards the 1st, go around that 1-10 loop as long as you can (and maybe even do 5-8 a few times in the process) . Shouldn't be a real problem in October.  Golf doesn't get much better than that.

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #46 on: December 23, 2005, 11:12:05 AM »
Quote
But if someone where to ask me for advice for Scotland I would say travel either alone or with one other friend.
Dan, I am glad you wrote that...I have always wondered if I was a bit odd, for I did just that years ago. I rented a tiny little car and drove around Scotland for 4 weeks playing golf (though I was fortunate enough to play Muirfield and other Open courses as well as some lesser-known gems).
It was a wonderful 4 weeks and I just know it would have been a very different trip if I had been with a group. I met and played with such wonderful people. Total strangers invited me home for dinner, or out for drinks, or called their kids to show me round town.
And it was more flexible than if I had been with others. Only regret was not having driven to Machrihanish :(
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #47 on: December 23, 2005, 12:39:25 PM »
Unless your time is worth so much that it doesn't make sense, I've always found it rewarding to arrange my own details in Scotland. It is not nearly that hard given the Internet, and I don't understand why anyone would pay a huge premium to a Perry Golf to do something that can be done through a few emails.
So, I think you are doing it the right way, Andy.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Andy Scanlon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #48 on: December 23, 2005, 04:36:19 PM »
Andy

Is there a question? :)

Only suggestion I would make is substitute the Eden for the Jubilee.  And, when you get to the 10th of the Eden, just jump over to the 17th, play back towards the 1st, go around that 1-10 loop as long as you can (and maybe even do 5-8 a few times in the process) . Shouldn't be a real problem in October.  Golf doesn't get much better than that.

No questions, Rich.  It was more a general observation for the prior posts in the thread about when one should/can begin to plan such a trip and how to go about planning it yourself instead of using a broker.

P.S.  I'll be staying at the Burghfield in Dornoch - one of your favorites, no?
All architects will be a lot more comfortable when the powers that be in golf finally solve the ball problem. If the distance to be gotten with the ball continues to increase, it will be necessary to go to 7,500 and even 8000 yard courses.  
- William Flynn, golf architect, 1927

Tim MacEachern

Re:Golfing Scotland
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2005, 10:41:56 AM »
For the southern portion of your trip, I would recommend staying at a Bed and Breakfast in or around Perth (pronounced as in the fruit).  From there you can reach Muirfield, North Berwick, Gullane, St. Andrews, and Carnoustie without too long a drive by North American standards (although allow extra time to drive around Edinburgh).

If you can, take the opportunity on a Sunday before you play St. Andrews (Old Course) to walk the course prior to your play.  Some of the tee shots and hazards are quite blind and it is worth knowing where you're going.  The whole Old Course experience can be overwhelming in the time you have to play.  I don't know whether the other courses in the St. Andrews group are open for play on Sunday, it might be best to play your compulsory round (other course) early on a Sunday if possible and spend the rest of the day wandering around the Old Course.  

I was disappointed in my round at the Old Course in only one respect:  I didn't get in a single bunker!  Either my drives were perfectly on-line or so far wide they skirted the trouble. :)

*****

This is my first post on Golf Club Atlas.  Hope to enjoy my time here.  I'm a medium handicap (5-6 usually) from Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada.  Not in the golf industry.  Member at Brightwood Golf and Country Club (Donald Ross/Willie Park Jr.) for 30 years, but as you've heard we're in the process of moving to a new Les Furber design.