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T_MacWood

Landscape architecture and golf
« on: December 11, 2005, 11:40:19 PM »
Who was the first golf architect to embrace LArch design ideas?

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2005, 02:39:12 AM »
If we are observe the snake oil salesman tactics of Robert Trent Jones, well he would be the founding-father of all golf architecture, let alone LandArch.

If I hazards a guess, wouldn't Tom Simpson be in there somewhere? I'm sure MacKenzie had to admire what the Olmsteads were doing and took a few lessons regarding that.

As far as land planning, I would think no one did it better then Desmond Muirhead who took great pride in the cities he actually designed in Australia and Japan. (as functioning cities)

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2005, 06:32:32 AM »
Tommy
Simpson was more into garden design...which is a little different than big park designs you find in England and elsewhere, which were the foundation of LArch.

One of the first to mention the importance of landscape affects in golf architecture is Guy Campbell, another is SV Hotchkin, although later than Campbell...Campbell was early twenties. But there may have been others who thought about it earlier.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 06:40:00 AM by Tom MacWood »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2005, 07:52:52 AM »
Look at Cornish's book on gca. The one he uses in his Harvard School of Design course.

I don't have it with me, but there is a lot about landarch there. In fact you can read the book as one long argument for the inclusion of gca under the landarch umbrellla. So he moves landarch front and center and talks about it a lot. He is in many respects the philosophical forefather of T. Fazio.

(I think Cornish's argument is misguided, but misguided for interesting reasons.)

At any rate, check out his book. I forget the title. It's something snappy like "Golf Architecture".

Bob
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 11:56:07 AM by BCrosby »

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2005, 08:05:08 AM »
Frederick Law Olmsted...

the creator of central park and first landscape architect (he coined the phrase)

some of his park design featuring long grassy meadows etc... have been turned into golf courses...

Dunlop_White

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2005, 11:14:39 AM »
Tom,

Remember the many quotes -- by the classic golf course architects -- which you allowed me to include in my FI? These illustrate a variety of original views and positions toward vegetation in golf and serve as the foundation for numerous landscape architecture practices today.

Dunlop


Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2005, 11:53:06 AM »
Tommy
Simpson was more into garden design...which is a little different than big park designs you find in England and elsewhere, which were the foundation of LArch.
I think garden designers who are LA would take exception to this.  Garden Design has been an important part of LA from the beginning.

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2005, 12:15:34 PM »
“Who was the first golf architect to embrace LArch design ideas?”

Very good question! I have no idea who the first was to dedicatedly apply “Landscape Architecture” principles to golf architecture or even who the first was who thought to apply even “Art” principles to golf course architecture. Probably the more pertinent question is not just who the first was but who it was who was most responsible for essentially basing golf course design principles on “Art” or “Landscape Architecture” principles.

Bob Crosby said;

“Look at Cornish's book on gca. The one he uses in his Harvard Design School course.
I don't have it with me, but there is a lot about landarch there. In fact you can read the book as one long argument for the inclusion of gca under the landarch umbrellla. So he moves landarch front and center and talks about it a lot.
(I think Cornish's argument is deeply misguided, but misguided for interesting reasons.)”

I could not agree with Bob more. There’s no question Cornish verily based a good deal of his concept and philosophy of golf course design on “Art” principles or “Landscape Architecture” principles. One only need read any of his books to see that loud and clear: I too think this concept of applying “Art” or “Landscape Architecture” principles to golf course design taken to too great an extreme can be and is misguided but for interesting reasons.

“Art Principles" including Harmony, Proportion, Balance, Rhythm and Emphasis are applicable to golf course design.”
The Architects of Golf, C&W

“Basic considerations in golf design can be depicted by an equilateral triangle with three aspects, namely the game itself, eye appeal and maintainability. Each aspect is represented by one side of this triangle. Environmental aspects are represented by the space inside the triangle.”
Architects of Golf, C&W

But was Cornish the first to basically base golf course design on “Art” or more pertinently “Landscape Architecture” principles? Probably not. Perhaps RTJ with some of the curriculum (art curriculum) he virtually created while a student at Cornell may’ve been close to the first to dedicatedly apply “Art” or "Landscape Architecture” principles to golf course design.

Where even did the term “Landscape Architecture” come from or begin? It appears it initially came from Frederick Law Olmsted and his partner Calvert Vaux when they chose the term in the 19th century to describe what they were doing. And what was Olmsted trying to do exactly? He was attempting basically to use scenery or ‘the psychological effects of Landscape’ not just as some artistic aesthetic in and of itself but for the actual health of the human organism.

Olmsted, generally, as well as in his capacity as a landscape architect, believed strongly in “Taste” (in the old fashioned sense). He believed that the key to moving society from some state of barbarism to one of civilization lay in the application of "taste", civility" “family”, “domesticity”, “gentility”, that the family and the home must become civilized before society as a whole could be transformed. Olmsted referred to his style and theory of “Landscape Architecture” as “sanative” and “restoring” (to Man's psychological state). Frankly, Olmsted felt that a “sanative” or “restoring” setting or scene should be only contemplative and at its best should not move the viewer of it to words (obviously FLO didn't believe in the "WOW" factor ;) ).

He believed in the “landscape architectural” principle of “the whole” or “Unity” of setting and therefore was no fan or advocate of what was then referred to as “gardening” or “decorative gardening” simply because that application drew attention to the parts (ultra pretty little arrangements of flowers and such that often were not indigenous to the scene) and detracted from the “Whole”.

William Flynn, for instance, may’ve been applying a form of “landscape architecture” principles to his golf course designs beginning in the early 1920s perhaps without even being conscious of it. His daughter spontaneously mentioned that he sometimes referred to himself as “The Nature Faker”. When we asked her what she thought he meant by that she said she knew precisely what he meant because he talked about it. He meant he wanted to create and present every hole as a separate and memorable “scene” if possible---a "visual", in fact. Is that a form of “landscape architecture”? Of course it is. It is without question an attempt to create a memorable "visual" or scene perhaps almost completely apart from the particulars of actually playing golf. After-all, what is "Landscape Architecture" or even "Art" but some attempt to create a memorable and perhaps impressive "visual" often a  scene?

The reason I think these kinds of “Art” or “Landscape Architecture” principles (Harmony, Proportion, Balance, Rhythm, and particularly Emphasis) taken to an extreme in golf course architecture is misguided (perhaps as Bob Crosby does) is because it tends to become “idealized”----eg not particularly natural in the sense that it becomes sanitized of the rough and tumble and sometimes seemingly not visually attractive aspects of Nature herself and her inherent randomness. Some aspects of raw Nature are not particularly soothing or peaceful or harmonious, balanced, proportional or even rhythmic.

And I feel golf itself and the landforms it’s played on (its basic "architecture") should be more of an unidealized mimic of raw Nature herself and not an idealized form of Nature as many “Art” and “Landscape Architecture” principles have always striven to make it. After all, some of the best natural features there are that serve as obstacles (hazards) in golf are raw and often unsettling looking obstacles (and "visuals"). These types of things can make the best hazards in look and in play in golf. Without obstacles and hazards golf architecture is really nothing, and without raw and unsettling natural or natural appearing hazards or even landforms golf architecture is really nothing much either, in my opinion but some 'idealized" representation of what Nature is supposed to be in the "game mind of Man" , as Max Behr sometimes said.

But, as to who was the first to use landscape architecture in golf design I have no real idea. I’m more interested in who it was who was mostly responsible for steering golf architecture down the road of landscape architecture or “Art” principles as much as it was, because perhaps like Bob Crosby, I feel that was when golf course architecture and golf design took a wrong turn.

I have a sneaking suspicion it was RTJ who was most responsible for taking golf architecture and its principles down this road based on "landscape architecture" principles or even "Art" principles.



 

« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 12:56:42 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2005, 01:18:36 PM »
As quoted above from Behr and Repton;

"This whole subject of natural bunker construction
is so closely allied to landscape gardening that the
following remarks of Humphrey Repton upon his art
will not be out of place here. He says:

"The perfection of landscape gardening consists
in the four following requisites: First, it must display
the natural beauties and hide the natural defects of
every situation......."

I'm a big fan of Max Behr's philosophies on golf course architecture and even though Humphery Repton was certainly a heavyweight in the art of landscaping that became known as "landscape architecture", I'm definitely no fan at all of this idea of 'hiding the natural defects of every situation' in golf course architecture.

Perhaps always attempting to do something like that in the art of landscape architecture (or landscape gardening as they sometimes seemed to call it back then) is an essential since it seems obvious that landscape architecture surely is an attempt to create something that's VISUALLY soothing for the sanative effects on the human organism, as Olmsted maintained.

However, I do not think that kind of thing is at all necessary to completely do in golf course architecture. Matter of fact, I think it becomes very much of a detriment in golf course architecture if taken to the extreme that it's apparently applied in landscape architecture (perhaps even as a necessity or essential to landscape architecture).

After-all, golf course architecture as a necessary adjunct and perhaps extension of golf itself is supposed to be more than just some soothing visual or scene for the purpose of peacefulness or psychological sanativeness.

Golf is supposed to be, after-all, in case any of us forget, Man's CONTEST with Nature, and golf course architecture should certainly maintain that, including maintaining "Nature's part", as Behr said. Landscape architecture, on the other hand, is not supposed to be any contest of Man vs Nature, merely visually and perhaps psychologically soothing, and "sanative", as the first great landscape architect, Olmsted, maintained .  
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 01:46:42 PM by TEPaul »

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2005, 01:45:33 PM »
Kelly
I don't recall learning about cottage gardens while studying LArch.

DavidM/TE
I'm wondering if Behr (or Macdonald) ever wrote about using landscape features--grouping of trees and bushes, water features, etc--for aesthetic affect.


BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2005, 01:47:59 PM »
TEP says:

"However, I do not think that kind of thing is at all necessary to completely do in golf course architecture. Matter of fact, I think it becomes very much of a detriment in golf course architecture if taken to the extreme that it's apparently applied in landscape architecture (perhaps even as a necessity or essential to landscape architecture).

After-all, golf course architecture as a necessary adjunct and perhaps extension of golf itself is supposed to be more than just some soothing visual or scene for the purpose of peacefulness or psychological sanativeness."

That pretty much nails it.

Beauty (in the landarch sense) is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for a great course.

A course does not have to be beautiful (in the landarch sense) to be great. It is also not enough to make a great course that it be only beautiful (again, in the landarch sense). Cornish and Fazio would disagree with both propositions, I presume.

In contradistinction to aesthetic values,  it is great golfing values (whatever that may mean) that are both necessary and sufficient conditions to a great golf course.

Bob  
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 04:07:00 PM by BCrosby »

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2005, 01:50:46 PM »
Kelly
I don't recall learning about cottage gardens while studying LArch.


I don't recall anything about cottage gardens either, did you say cottage before?  But, I know we learned garden design, and I have read quite a bit about garden design with regard for the Prairie Movement in the early 20th century.

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2005, 01:50:47 PM »
David
Did MacKenzie delve into other areas of landscape design?

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2005, 01:54:06 PM »
TEP says:

"However, I do not think that kind of thing is at all necessary to completely do in golf course architecture. Matter of fact, I think it becomes very much of a detriment in golf course architecture if taken to the extreme that it's apparently applied in landscape architecture (perhaps even as a necessity or essential to landscape architecture).

After-all, golf course architecture as a necessary adjunct and perhaps extension of golf itself is supposed to be more than just some soothing visual or scene for the purpose of peacefulness or psychological sanativeness."

That pretty much nails it.

Beauty (in the landarch sense) is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for a great course.

A course does not have to be beautiful (in the landarch sense) to be great. It is also not enough to make a great course that it be only beautiful (again, in the landarch sense). Cornish and Fazio would disagree with both propositions, I presume.

Unlike aesthetics, great golfing values (let's agree to fuss about what that might mean later) are both a necessary and sufficient conditions to a great golf course.

Bob  

I think it is an excellent point by Tom and Bob.  there is far too much static in life, we encounter so much of it in the world, yet when one goes to a golf course it would be nice if the landscape were void of the static we encounter day to day, such as vehicles, carts, paths, walls, buildings, obvious earth movement, fake water hazards, exotic plants, and other manmade structures.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 01:54:31 PM by Kelly Blake Moran »

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2005, 01:55:20 PM »
Kelly
No I didn't mention cottage gardens, but Wethered and Simpson devoted a chapter of their book to minature golf courses in cottage and small private gardens -- a specialty of Tom Simpson.

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2005, 02:33:41 PM »
"DavidM/TE
I'm wondering if Behr (or Macdonald) ever wrote about using landscape features--grouping of trees and bushes, water features, etc--for aesthetic affect."

Tom MacWood:

I guess it depends on what you mean by "aesthetic affect". And what do you mean by the use of landscape architecture features such as groupings of trees or bushes or water features in golf course architecture? Does the use of features like that by a golf architect have to be inspired by landscape architecture, in your opinion? I'm even wondering where you feel you're trying to go with this subject. Do you think you know where you're trying to go with this thread (as fascinating as I think it is)?  And if you do know where you're trying to go with it, maybe you'd be good enough to tell us.  ;)

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2005, 02:38:59 PM »
TE
I never know where these threads might go. The post was inspired by some recent reading of Sir Guy Campbell's thoughts on the subject.

I am wondering which golf architects promoted the use of groupings of trees and bushes, water features, and other purely landscape affects...and did they mention if they borrowed these ideas from or were inspired by LArch.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 02:44:29 PM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2005, 02:53:50 PM »
How did Repton, Pope or even Olmsted's design practices manifest themselves in the designs of Macdonald or Behr or any of the other early golf architects?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 02:54:25 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2005, 04:01:45 PM »
“How did Repton, Pope or even Olmsted's design practices manifest themselves in the designs of Macdonald or Behr or any of the other early golf architects?”

Tom MacWood:

Frankly, I don’t believe one could really say that the design PRACTICES of a Repton, Pope or Olmsted (all landscape architects) manifested themselves in the designs of Macdonald or Behr or any other early golf course architect.  The reason I say that is the purpose of the two art forms is different enough that similar practices in the two art forms don't much exist, or shouldn't, in my opinion. One has to do with a visual effect and experience and the other has to do basically with the active playing of a sport. That's a pretty big and fundamental difference in the art forms right there. ;)  There is no sport that I’m aware of involved in the art of landscape architecture.

What manifested itself in golf course architecture from landscape architecture were certain similar PRINCIPLES, not necessarily practices. And that was why some architects like Macdonald and Behr mentioned a man like Humphery Repton.  Look at what Repton said about the four ‘requisites’ of landscape architecture (he calls it landscape gardening);


"The perfection of landscape gardening consists
in the four following requisites: First, it must display
the natural beauties and hide the natural defects of
every situation. Secondly, it should give the appearance
of extent and freedom, by carefully disguising
or hiding the boundary. Thirdly, it must studiously
conceal every interference of art, however expensive,
by which the scenery is improved, making
the whole appear the production of nature only; and
fourthly, all objects of mere convenience or comfort,
if incapable of being made ornamental, or of becoming
proper parts of the general scenery, must be
removed or concealed."

Does the first requisite apply to golf architecture? Some may say so but I never saw Behr or Macdonald say that natural defects should be hidden in every situation in golf course architecture.  

How about the second requisite Repton mentions? Behr, for one, wrote ALL THE TIME about how important a feeling of “freedon” was in golf architecture and in golf. Are you aware of that?

How about the third requisite Repton mentions? Well, we certainly know that ALL the early architects who were interested in producing man-made architecture that looked like it occurred from nature wrote and spoke about that ALL THE TIME. They called it things like “hiding the hand of man” or tying in man-made features with natural ones so as to be virtually indistinguishable. Park, Colt, Fowler, Abercrombie, Alison, Tillinghast, Flynn, Wilson, Thomas, et al and most certainly Mackenzie (camouflage) talked about that all the time.

And the fourth requisite mentioned by Repton really doesn’t apply to golf course architecture at all for obvious reasons, unless you’re talking about something like concealing a maintenance facility.

I feel it was some of the principles, not exactly the practices or the features that were similar and that they wrote about, and of those principles that were similar between the two art forms the greatest of all to the "naturalists" in both art forms was the desire in both landscape architecture and golf course architecture to make what was being produced look like nature produced it and not man.

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2005, 04:37:04 PM »
I did not realize until today that a bunker was a landscape architecture feature that may've been inspired by Repton, Pope and Olmsted. I always thought a bunker was a golf course architecture feature inspired by the natual dunes and such in the early linkland of Scotland.

And I did not know Mackenzie's initial idea on camouflage and how and why to use and apply it to golf course architecture came from or was inspired from landscape architecture. I guess Alister just thought if he said his camouflage inspiration came to him in the Boer War due to the artificial looking military trenches of the British and the ultra natural looking military trenches of the Boers it would just sound better than if he admitted he got the idea from some Repton inspired English cottage garden or something.  ;)

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2005, 05:13:03 PM »
"The perfection of landscape gardening consists
in the four following requisites: First, it must display
the natural beauties and hide the natural defects of
every situation. Secondly, it should give the appearance
of extent and freedom, by carefully disguising
or hiding the boundary. Thirdly, it must studiously
conceal every interference of art, however expensive,
by which the scenery is improved, making
the whole appear the production of nature only; and
fourthly, all objects of mere convenience or comfort,
if incapable of being made ornamental, or of becoming
proper parts of the general scenery, must be
removed or concealed."


Is this an accurate representation of Repton's theories on landscape design? What were some of Repton's favored design practices in the field? Are there examples of those practices in Behr's work?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 05:36:37 PM by Tom MacWood »

T_MacWood

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2005, 05:42:09 PM »
David
The question was for anyone out there.

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2005, 05:47:06 PM »
"Is this an accurate representation of Repton's theories on landscape design? What were some of Repton's favored design practices in the field? Are there examples of those practices in Behr's work?"

Tom:

I really can't answer that. What do you think? I'm sure you know more than I do about Humphery Repton, his theories on LA and any favored design practices.

Is that quote an accurate representation of Repton? I don't know about that either. I've seen that quote before but D Moriarty put it on here not me. He said it came from Behr in Golf Illustrated in 1915 but I couldn't find it in the AARF site that has those issues on line. I have a lot of Behr's articles but maybe not that one. However, in this vein, there is a basic theme running through almost all Behr's articles on golf architecture itself. Behr did write about a number of other things to do with golf such as rules, the swing and other things.

TEPaul

Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2005, 06:42:07 PM »
Tom MacWood:

What do you mean by what some of Repton's favored design practices were? Are you still thinking of things like the use of groups of trees and bushes and the use of a lake or something? If you are I'd seriously doubt something like that would be of much interest as any kind of connection or inspiration on the part of early architects like Macdonald and Behr from someone like Repton, Pope or Olmsted and landscape architecture.

As I said earlier it seems the connection between some of the early golf course architects who were advocating for and clearly interested in creating architecture that looked as natural as possible and the early landscape designers like Repton, Pope and Olmsted was just a common interest in producing work that really did look as much like Nature made it as possible.

That may've been some of the inspiration the early landscape architects provided the early golf course architects but from most of what I've read the thing that many of the architects who wrote in the 1920s said was their inspiration for naturalism was the prototype of TOC. And I see no particular reason not to take those architects who wrote that at their word. Do you?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 06:44:57 PM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Landscape architecture and golf
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2005, 08:15:11 PM »
Back to basics, guote TMac
Who was the first golf architect to embrace LArch design ideas?
Why not the question in reverse?
....actually the original question is the lame one....and the answer is THEY ALL DID!
LArch and GCA have always been developing contemporaneously....being related but different design disciplines that use similar tools....and both rely strongly on a minor in civil engineering and agronomy.

I really don't understand a need to connect the two ala a chicken and the egg scenario....and even more especially Tom Macwoods attempts to connect GCA in a serious way with the Arts and Crafts movement.... GCA was clearly a minor footnote for A and C....whose movement was much more about lifestyle, Interior and Exterior Design and Building Architecture.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2005, 08:16:42 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

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