[Jason Topp]

I got a message from Royal Melbourne indicating they have had problems with spraying the greens on the West Course and seeking to transfer my reservation to the East.  While I would like to play the East, I was looking forward to the West as the highlight of my trip.

Anyone know how bad it is?  Unless it is closed, I am inclined to play the West anyway.  Nonetheless, I would appreciate any advice.

[Lou_Duran]

Sorry I can't help, Jason.

Can someone verify that the greens are bermuda?  If so, what type?  The Ausies have a cool name for bermuda which currently escapes me.  Perhaps the problem is a slow transition to summer (do they overseed in winter?), in which case they may be bumpy but not terribly slow.

[Michael Hayes]

Check out the thread "Cause for Concern", threre is a link to an article that has a pic of one of the greens.  It is not pretty .

I believe that RM greens were mostly poa.

here is the link to the artilce...

http://www.theage.com.au/news/golf/royal-melbourne-investigates-green-damage/2005/12/06/1133829597016.html

[Grant Davey]

Lou,
We Aussies refer to Bermuda as Couch. As far as what grasses are on the greens, I am not sure.
Grant

[Philip Gawith]

Jason - Mike Clayton said to me the other day that there had been a big chemical screw up and the word was that up to ten greens were affected. But he went on to say that you should still see the course, no matter what is going on.

[Tyler Kearns]

Jason,

I share your concern being that I'm scheduled to play there in February and March. I'll e-mail the gent that I am playing with, perhaps he can give us a first-hand description of the problems.

TK

[Mike_Clayton]

Royal Melbourne's greens are all bent grass - with a little poa now that was never there before.

I played four weeks ago and a few greens - 5w,6w,7w - were on the way out but they are totally devoid of living grass now.
It is still worth playing - or walking.
I am assuming they don't want visitors seeing it in its current state.

[Chris Kane]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/golf/royal-melbourne-investigates-green-damage/2005/12/06/1133829597016.html

They applied chemicals to kill the poa, and it looks like it wasn't mixed properly.  There are plenty of theories about what went wrong.

[Lou_Duran]

I was unaware that there is a chemical which kills poa without disturbing the bent.  Does anyone in the U.S. know of any?  I thought that this was the reason for the excitement with roundup resistant bents currently in development.

Couch is the word for bermuda I was looking for.  Did RM convert its greens to bent from "couch" in recent years, or have they been that way for a long time?

[Mike McGuire]

velocity

http://www.valent.com/Product.asp?industry=1&segment=GO&key=69120&src=

[rgkeller]

Evidently the powers that be at RM forgot to check how much bent was left on the greens before killing the poa.

[Mark_Guiniven]

The Aussies will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think couch is just their summer fairway surface in Melbourne. I'd be surprised if greens are ever anything but cool season grasses or poa there.

I know the RM greens in the early days were always called Sutton's Mix, which I assume is a reference to the English seed merchant Sutton & Sons. The father, Martin H.F Sutton, compiled 'The Book Of The Links' while the son, Martin A.F. Sutton compiled 'Golf Courses - Design, Construction and Upkeep'.

Sutton's mix was a blend of various bents and fescues (I understand Yarra Yarra used the same stuff) and the greens during the Morcom and Crockford eras were always highly praised. In 1988 the club for some reason decided to resurface to Penncross. I remember Mike Clayton saying on the last Heineken coverage that almost as soon as that was finished they started resurfacing them back again.

What, exactly, used to be in the Sutton's Mix, where the seed was sourced from and how RM were able to go back to it I have no idea. But I would be interested to find out.

[Steve Okula]

I visited RM in early 2003, and toured the course with Jim Porter, the Asst. Super at the time. He told me the greens were the Sutton mix Mark Guiniven is talking about, and everything else Mark says about grass there makes sense too, except I didn't see much Penncross in the greens.
When I pressed Mr. Porter for more information on the Sutton mix composition, he either couldn't or wouldn't say. The greens were terrifically true with good speed, however.

I've managed my share of Penncross, and the greens didn't look like that species. If I had to guess, I would have said some mixture of bent/Poa/fescue.

There is no chemical that I know about that is toxic to Poa and perfectly safe on bentgrass. With products like endothal, mentioned in the article, it's a question of tolerances. The bent may tolerate a slightly higher rate of the chemical than the Poa does. Applying this sort of thing is like playing with fire, the slightest mis-step and you're typing up your resume and packing up the house.

This isn't the first prominent course to lose the gamble to rid the greens of Poa. Remember a few years ago when Loch Lomonds greens were toast during the Solheim Cup? AS I heard it, that was the result of a program to rid the greens of
Poa using Round-up. Very dangerous.

I'm happily married to Poa, myself.

[Steve Okula]

I correct myself. Jim Porter was the golf course superintendent in 2003, not the assistant.

[Tyler Kearns]

I spoke with a member today and he said that it does not appear to be an overdose on endothal - the greens turned brown 10 days after the application. The first 3 greens on the West course were oversprayed, due to a mechanical problem in the air guage of the sprayer, but those greens have recovered. The greens in general are coming back, but the ones in question are 5, 6, and 7 West and 13 East. These greens will be closed for the next 4-6 weeks, with #5 having the possibility of being stripped and re-sodded.

TK

[Neil_Crafter]

My understanding is that the greens at Royal Melbourne were regrassed to replace the Penncross with a selection of bentgrass that was taken from one of the old Suttons Mix greens on the east course that had not been "Penncrossed". A number of selections were taken and grown on in test plots and the best one selected for regrassing. It does look like the selection may have been a bit sensitive to Poa chemicals though.

Long term (50 years +) member of RMGC, Dr John Green, sent me this information which is what the members have been told:

"Adverse reaction to spraying of greens for Poa.
Many of the greens of the courses, especially 5th, 6th, & 7th West and 13th
East, suffered damage after being sprayed for Poa.    This does not appear
to be due to an overdose of Endothal, because of the length of time after
the application before the severe reaction set in (i.e. no browning after
3-4 days and the marked deterioration occurring about 10 days post spraying.
The correct concentrations were applied, however, the 1st three greens of
the West did have an excess of fluid applied but the staff member applying
the spray realized his tank was emptier than it should be and stopped at
that point.  The reaction of those greens was in keeping with an excess of
Enderthal and different to that of the seriously affected greens.  A
mechanical problem was discovered due to air in the gauge.)
The Club is investigating the whole matter fully and further results should
be available by the end of the year.   When the investigation is complete,
the Captain has indicated that the facts and conclusions will be made know
to the members.  In the mean time the greens mentioned above have been have
been closed for the next month to 6 weeks.  There is a possibility that the
5th West may need to be ripped up and re-laid, using what turf is left in
the nursery after its depletion due to the creation of the new 7E and 8E,
plus the turf of the flat practice green near the tennis courts."

cheers Neil

[Jason Topp]

Thanks everyone.  I knew this would be a great source of information.  

[James Bennett]

Neil Crafter's note ahs more information than I have, but I do recall that when the Sutton's Mix was restored, they established new seed (presumably from the old green Neil referred to) using a firm in New Zealand.

I wish my turf knowledge was more advanced, so I could explain the method.  It seemed really cool to me at the time to think that the club wanted to restore the fire andteeth of the greens by re-instating the old turf style, and the lengths that they would go to (using the NZ firm to establish the seed).

By the way, as I understand it, Penncross at RM was the equivalent of 'low beam' on the headlights whereas Sutton's Mix at RM is truely 'high beam'. (aka TEPaul definitions).

James B

[harley_kruse]

Jason

I was on the West course last Wednesday and also played it the Tuesday before.  There has been a marked improvement in the greens that were damaged.  Another 3-4  weeks of good weather might see all but 5 West back open again.

I agree with comments by Mike  in that you should still play the West Course even if you have to walk 5W and play a temporary green on 6W. The opportunity to play/walk the sequence of holes 3,4,5,67 is not to be missed.

Mike, I also heard that Woodlands got in to trouble with Endothal as well...perhaps a worse situation than the West Course...any light on that one??

[Bill Warnick]

Endothall is a very dangerous product when used for Poa control. It was tested and developed at Oregon State University(Go Beavs) and caused more than one superintendent to lose sleep and/ or his job. I'm surprised Endothall was used when there are more gradual methods using growth regulators that are showing good results and are not as scary.  Is it possible that the product worked as advertised and they misjudged the amount of poa?  How fast are dirt greens?

[Tyler Kearns]

I was on the West course last Wednesday and also played it the Tuesday before.  There has been a marked improvement in the greens that were damaged.  Another 3-4  weeks of good weather might see all but 5 West back open again.

That is good news. Judging from the picture posted in this thread, the greens have been reseeded and are starting to show signs of improvement.

TK

[Matthew Delahunty]

Endothall is a very dangerous product when used for Poa control. It was tested and developed at Oregon State University(Go Beavs) and caused more than one superintendent to lose sleep and/ or his job. I'm surprised Endothall was used when there are more gradual methods using growth regulators that are showing good results and are not as scary.  Is it possible that the product worked as advertised and they misjudged the amount of poa?  How fast are dirt greens?

I played there a few weeks back and the "browns" were lightning fast. 5W and 6W were basically unplayable. I don't think there was any misjudgment as to the amount of poa. The greens were only relaid 3 years ago so the poa was only starting to really grow in. The interesting thing when I was there was that the poa spots were alive and well after the spraying while the bent had died off.

[Graeme Grant]

Monday morning I spent time with Jim Porter inspecting a damaged green (6th west) and marvelling at the quality turf in the 9th west. We discussed the dilemma but nothing conclusive has surfaced as to the cause.  Endothal was being used to minimise the Poa throughout the course and was applied at the recommended rate.  This should do nothing but cause a slight discoloration of the bent.  Only the very susceptible Poa varieties will be killed - most will suffer only a minor setback.
My experience with Endothal (more than 30 years) suggests that if anything is to go amiss with an application it is apparent within 2 days.  The problem at Royal Melb. did not surface for more than a week later.
Part of the investigation into the problem was to check with the chemical manufacturer but nothing out of the ordinary was discovered.
Returfing of the 5th west began on Monday morning. I  believe the 6th & 7th west and 13th east will be oversown but it is always difficult to get good establishment in this way.

The turf type in the greens is a mixture of 'Browntop Bents' selected from the best grasses in the 'Suttons Mix' greens prior to complete conversion to Penncross in the late 80s and 90s.  Browntop bent has different growth characteristics to creeping bentgrasses, mainly:
- spreading from rhizomes or underground stems
- a very upright leaf growth
- a light green colour
I have noticed a variation in tolerence to Endothal by the different Browntop bio-types but never death at recommended rates.

No misjudgement of the percentage of Poa annua present was made. There is very little in the greens (say 2% or 3%) as they are so new. The bare areas consist of dead bent grass not dead Poa annua.

Harley Kruse made mention of Woodlands greens. I have been offering advice re their maintenance.
This is the situation.
In 2001, to avoid total reconstruction because of the Poa annua content and the weakening Penncross bent, the maintenance program was altered.
Major gains were made but due to various factors these gains were all but lost between September '04 & May '05.
A rigorous program to eradicate as much of the Poa annua as possible that had regained a foothold began in July this year using Endothal.
Spraying ceased on all greens 4 weeks ago.  
Fertiliser has been used to redevelop the bent grass and a growth regulator has been applied to minimise the remaining Poa annua.
At present the greens have a very healthy cover of turf ranging from 85% - 99% Penncross bent.
The re-establishment of firm, fast & true putting surfaces without placing too much stress on the bent is now underway.

The greens were intentionally taken to the brink and at no stage did we "get into trouble from Endothal".

[Grant Davey]

 Graeme,

Has there been any adverse weather conditions or other practices which may have increased the plant stress around the time of the application?

Grant
 

[Steve Okula]

Bil Warnick,

Would you please get in touch by phone or e-mail soonest.

Thanks,

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