[Brendan Dolan]

I am sure that this has been a topic before, but what characteristics help to make a great short par 5?  What are some short par 5's worth studying, and why?  

I love playing short par 5's, because almost anything can happen.

As far as my favorite short par 5 that I have played, I would go with the 11th at Waterville.  It plays over rugged terrain and you have to have some guts to go for the green, which has tall grass dunes surrounding it.

Brendan  

[Mike McGuire]

TEMPTATION.....ie: the 13th at Augusta.

Geoff's book "Grounds for Golf " has a great chapter on it.

[rjsimper]

Some architectural feature that prevents it from being a Driver - PW hole for a long hitter.

[David Druzisky]

If anybody can bring up the link, I had a similar thread a couple months back - Geat short par 5s and why?

It had a list of 10 allegedly great famous par 5s under 500 yards listed.  ANGC 13 was on the list of course.

Most of the responding posts centered around great 2nd shots that gave you much to think about.

DbD

[David Ober]

The 13th at my home club (Canyon Crest CC in Riverside, California) is a fantastic little hole. It's 471 yards, but it's uphill on the tee shot and plays into the prevailing wind -- especially in the afternoon.

It's a dogleg right, so cutting off the dogleg can put the really long hitter into the 170-180 range, but that's a significant poke and you have to contend with trees and OB right if you're going to cut the dogleg. In addition, there's a rather large, but squat pine tree on the right corner.

To the left is a bunker and a large eucalyptus tree and also a slope from left to right that catches any pulled tee shots.

On the approach, there is OB right and trees left all the way down the fairway. The green is very small and slopes from front to back on the first part of the green, but generally the green slopes from left to right.

Two bunkers guard the right front and middle right of the green, but the left is open, save for a steep slope of rough immediately to the left of the green.

I absolutely love this hole.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I grew up playing this hole in the late 60's and early 70's, and it was the ruin of many rounds for good players--it was the 4th hole back then.  In the past the right was not OB,but a wild brush area falloff with an abundance of wildlife.  My friends and I caught several of our pet snakes and at least 20 rattlesnakes had been killed on the hole during my time there.  From the green, there is a view of the best short par 5 in SoCal--Victoria's 15th.  This hole runs parrallel to a left stream with a safe shot across the stream left for a third shot back over the stream fronting the green.  From the tee shot, the approach to the green is almost completely blind over a massive bunkered hill with an extra long pin on the green.  the green is about 30 yards long and about 10 yards wide with bunkers on the right.  A right bailout brings the water into play because the green cants towards the water.  This is my favorite Max Behr hole--though I would love to see Lakeside minus 3000 trees to change my judgement, or RSF restored.

[Michael Robin]

Hey Robert, I thought you grew up at Riviera with its pretty good
short Par 5 1st.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Hey micheal long time no see.  Riviera was part 2 of my upbringing.  I began playing Canyon Crest in 1967 when I hit my Mario Cessario 7 iron through our neighbor's window.  We moved to LA in fall of 1975 and did not begin playing Riviera until the fall of 1977.  I agree on the first at Riv, but having played Victoria a few times the past few years, I think 15 is the best short par 5 in SoCal.  Palos Verdes has a great short one, but I cannot remember the hole #.  LaQuinta Mountain #15 now plays as a great short one due to technology.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Michael, you've played a great volume of top courses, you might have a few that are worthy of this category.

[Mark_Fine]

Temptation, risk/reward, options.  The "short" par-5 is a relative term, however, the most important aspect on the greatest ones is that they make the golfer think.  

[Ken Bramlett]

I agree with the risk/reward sentiment.  

But I especially like to see the risk element come into play throughout the hole.  So, using 13 at Augusta as an example if you hit a well placed driver or three wood off the tee you potentially take the creek in front of the green out of play on your second.

Alternatively, if you lay back off the tee you've now got to contend with the creek (and the contour of the creek line gets more imposing the farther back you are).

Brilliant.    

[mike_malone]

 I like a dogleg in the landing area that requires hugging the inside of the dogleg to get to the "go" point . And the outside of the dogleg is a problem , but not a penalty stroke. Trees are helpful along the inside of the dogleg because they eliminate bombing it over everything.

   This combination usually encourages the player to try the more heroic shot off the tee.

   What can add more interest is if one cuts the dogleg they have a shorter shot but not the best line of attack for the second shot.

  This can be seen as a slight knock on #13 ANGC .Because I think cutting the dogleg successfully leaves the easiest second shot.

[Philippe Binette]

To me, a great short par 5 must have 3 things...

1) A real trouble spot...
2) A good green where it's no guarantee up and down, or 2-putt for birdie.
3) A feeling that it's somewhat stupid to lay up for the 10 handicap and less... basically, the layup at 100 yards and the shot after must be tougher than hitting the ball as long as you can on your second or going for the green (think 16th at Sawgrass)

[TEPaul]

"This can be seen as a slight knock on #13 ANGC .Because I think cutting the dogleg successfully leaves the easiest second shot."

Mayday:

What are you talking about? Cutting the dogleg or getting very close to the left side off the tee on ANGC's #13 is the flattish area as well as the shortest way to go. The strategic counter-balance to that is the fairway slopes pretty hard right to left in that area and Rae's Creek as well as woods runs tight along that left side. That's pretty much good risk/reward golf architecture 101, Mike!  

[mike_malone]

 TEPaul,

  Your   makes me wonder what  a proper response should be.

    But I will say about #13 ANGC and other short par fives that they usually have some features that would make people complain if they were  par fours. So, Rae's Creek running in front of the green when you are hitting from a severe sideslope would get the response "This is a goofy par four."

  #7 at Rolling Green has that hill just short of the green that will always say to me "This is a par 5" because a "required" long approach to that green as a par 4 would irritate most. It is amazing how a difficult approach to a par five for a second shot is fun but as a par four it sucks.

[TEPaul]

In my opinion, all the really good short par 5s I've ever seen have one basic element to them and that's something pretty darned complex, tricky and penal down at the green end whether it's something like Rae's Creek at ANGC's #13 or the quarry basically covering most of the entry to the green at my course's #7 (a concept copy of ANGC's #13 by Maxwell) or something about the green itself, it's shape or orientation (Road hole at NGLA) that makes recoverying from around it difficult and that gives good golfers just the right amount of pause to go for it in two or not.

That's from the strategic perspective of good players and their option of going for short tricky par 5s in two like ANGC's #13. But there also has to be something about the layup shot that makes it tricky and strategic too because most of the rest of golfers will not be going for a green like that in two simply because they just aren't long enough. I think we know what's so tricky about the lay-up area of ANGC's #13, and so most good short par 5s need something that has that strategic effect too for the layup shot that most of the rest of us will be choosing.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

I have to second Tommy boy.  What are you talking about?  First of all, I haven't been to Augusta as yet and really don't know for sure the best way to play the 13th.  Have you?  I know seeing it on TV is some help but really, you must be able to come up with examples within your experience if you are to support your claims.

As for 7 at RGGC and other short par 5s (at least in today's game) Why should a nice birdieable par 5 like the seventh be transformed into a lousy hole as a par 4?  It makes no sense unless you put too much stock into greens in regulation.  This might indicate why you're hung up on 18 being a par 4.  It is surely harder to make a 4 on 18 than it is on 7 but so what?  Clearly part of a hole's design and strategy takes into account its position in the routing and those holes around it.  Right?  With 8-10 coming up, it makes sense that 7 is a birdieable par 5.  Don't worry, if they ever do my redesign concept it will be fantastic!  Trees out bunker in.  Repeat after me....

[ChipOat]

1) The landing area has to get tighter and more penal as the distance off the tee increases.  That is, the long hitter has to drive it at least as accurately as the short hitter - perhaps more so.

2) The green complex needs to open up better from the "good" side of the fairway and less so from the "wrong" side.

3) The penalty for missing the green (on the 2nd or 3rd shot) should be severe.

4)The green should be difficult to 2 putt from long distance.

5) If possible, the lay up shot from the middle of the fairway for the short hitter should be something more than just a wedge or 9 iron.  Guys like me find driver-9 iron-9 iron to be an awfully boring 2nd shot to play.

[David Ober]

Hey micheal long time no see.  Riviera was part 2 of my upbringing.  I began playing Canyon Crest in 1967 when I hit my Mario Cessario 7 iron through our neighbor's window.  We moved to LA in fall of 1975 and did not begin playing Riviera until the fall of 1977.  I agree on the first at Riv, but having played Victoria a few times the past few years, I think 15 is the best short par 5 in SoCal.  Palos Verdes has a great short one, but I cannot remember the hole #.  LaQuinta Mountain #15 now plays as a great short one due to technology.

I find Riviera's 1st hole to be about the weakest on the course. Just not much to recommend it in my mind.

[Lou_Duran]

I agree with David Ober, though the green complex is pretty interesting.

A great short par 5 is accessible in two to most players with a solidly hit, well positioned drive.  It has a high risk/reward ratio the further out one is, but also places a premium on the correct angle of approach.  The green complex should be very complicated, particularly so for shots in the 30 to 70 yard range, and those closer hit to the short side of the hole.

[Michael Robin]

David, I think 14 takes that honor. The 1st is a great get away hole. Yes,
on the easy side, but an exciting first swing with everybody watching. Your rewarded with a go for the green if you pass the first test. If you
manage the tricky putting surface, you're off to a birdie start which helps
as you buckle up to play 2-5. I believe this was a big strategic approach
for Thomas: A softer start to get away followed by one of the toughest holes on the course.

This is also one of the traits of a great short par 5, The get away 1st
hole. Think L.A. North, Pasatiempo, Bel-Air, Barnbougle, St. Andrews Beach, San Francisco, etc... Not Necessarily that tough, but helpful in
establishing confidence for the rest of the round.

[ForkaB]

#1 at Pasa's a par-4 these days, Michael.

[Jay Flemma]

Here's what I like - Lines of Charm.  Severe peril in the DIRECT line to the target, with longer, safer options running around the trouble.

Jim Engh gets so many great natural settings that his architecture sometimes goes unnoticed, but he's doing a great job finishing his courses with short reachable par-5s that have fascinating trouble...hurly-burly muscle bunkers right in the landing area, or treacherous carries over brush or scrub filled high desert chasms.  You can score anything from 3-10.  Examples include The Club at Pradera, Fossil Trace, and Lakota Canyon Ranch.

Also, Tom Doak also likes to finish with a short but trouble filled par-5 - see Beechtree as an example.  Pacific Dunes also finishes with a par-5, but most people I play with cant reach it in two.

Yes, sadly the first at Pasa is now a really narrow par-4...so much for Mackenzie's quote "Let me introduce you to the first tee...two stiff shots and maybe a birdie four..."

[Tom Huckaby]

Re Pasa #1, well it is obviously much narrower than MacKenzie intended - those huge trees in between 1 and 9 weren't part of his plan.  BUT... it plays MUCH wider today than it has in many, many years, because said trees have been thinned out considerably.

It also is very reachable in two now, much more so than in many many years since the large green-side tree was removed.

Thus it really does play as a two-shotter these days, and in fact just based on strokes played it is in fact playing the easiest it ever has, in my 25 years of playing the course.  That is, I can make way more fours than ever before, and even a three now and again is possible.  The old way, no way, I felt lucky to make a 5.

But it's funny how a little number on the scorecard has people thinking it's now so much tougher now!

All this being said, man it would be cool to play with NO trees at all between 1 and 9... but sadly that can never happen... can it?

TH

[Michael Robin]

Rich, you're right, today it's a 4. I guess I'm just romanticising its
original intent.

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